Premiership Rugby 20/21 - Rd 17

[Which Tyler]

Simmonds always looked like a flanker, and Ewers and Armand always looked more like 8s
Weird how they ended up in this configuration - guess they valued Simmonds burst of speed from the base of the ruck or something

Think is Ewers had played 8 and Simmonds 7 they'd have both had a bunch more caps by now

I think Exeter just like the balance of having 2 huge units in the backrow for their mauling and 2m crashing game.
For the scrum, I guess the balance is best if those huge units are on the side, creating a more equal shove - which also means they'd lose less shove when the 8 starts rummaging for the ball to run with it.

It's just one of those unorthodox things about Baxter's set-up that slightly handicaps his players for internationals.
Any other coach would have had 6. Armand, 7. Simmonds, 8. Ewers (and 12. Slade, 13. Nowell for that matter). I suspect all 5 would have picked up more caps had they played those positions at club level*


* probably not Nowell who'd have been fighting Manu on the rare occasions they were both fit; and JJ the rest of the time - but that's a matter of competition rather than natural attributes. 15 would have been his other position of best fit, then we'd probably never have seen Daly back there, and all be the happier for it, Brown could well have had fewer caps too.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Did someone say "luxury giraffe"?
Except, of course, that SS is a shortarse.

If only he played with 7 written on his back, he'd be approaching 50 caps by now - well, maybe not, Curry and Underhill would still have provided stiff competition, but SS had first dibs at international level*.
It's weird; Eddie's got no problem playing flankers at 8, or locks at flank; but refuses to consider an 8 on the flank (or centres on the wing), despite SS being a flanker who happens to wear 8.


*ETA: No he didn't; Curry got capped first; by 1 international window. SS then went on to get all 7 of his caps before TC got his 2nd.
SU also got capped earlier than I'd thought, making his debut a week after TC, and earning his 2nd cap alongside SS's debut.

All 3 debuted against Argentina (TC and SU whilst the Lions were away; SS properly in the Autumn), confusion of the Lions probably explains why I don't really remember it - that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!

I think if Simmonds was taller he would get picked tbh.



Also don't think I would see Simmonds picked ahead of Curry anyway. Simmonds is alright defensively but Curry + Underhill are both 2/3 levels higher. I just don't think Eddie wants a player like that in his pack really.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think if Simmonds was taller he would get picked tbh.



Also don't think I would see Simmonds picked ahead of Curry anyway. Simmonds is alright defensively but Curry + Underhill are both 2/3 levels higher. I just don't think Eddie wants a player like that in his pack really.

Agree with this.

Curry and Underhill are clear first choice flankers and best complemented by a bigger unit at 8. Maybe a different question if your 6 is a Martin or Hill type.

I like Simmonds a lot, but think Jones has got it right having the versatile speedy option on the bench. Personally I'd have Simmonds over Earl, but I'm not too bothered either way.

 

[Which Tyler]

Also don't think I would see Simmonds picked ahead of Curry anyway. Simmonds is alright defensively but Curry + Underhill are both 2/3 levels higher. I just don't think Eddie wants a player like that in his pack really.

Yeah, when I was thinking that, I was also thinking that SS had been capped a good 12-18 months before Curry / Underhill got a look in; which would have made him the incumbent and much harder to displace.
I don't think playing flanker would have got him a capped any earlier though, so yeah; he'd have been up against the current flankers at the same time, and would likely have missed out.
It still could have given us Ewers as an option at 8 to complement Billy - and probably do better than Hughes at trying to play like Billy

 

[BPM]

Simmonds always looked like a flanker, and Ewers and Armand always looked more like 8s
Weird how they ended up in this configuration - guess they valued Simmonds burst of speed from the base of the ruck or something

Think is Ewers had played 8 and Simmonds 7 they'd have both had a bunch more caps by now

If you're talking about body shape then I agree, but I don't see enough of him at the breakdown to really rate him as a flanker (not just over the ball).

The closest 7/8 comparison in the Premiership is probably Ben Earl, but while Simmonds is definitely better with the ball, Earl is considerably better at the breakdown and dog work. Ardie Savea would be another good comparison with some similar qualities to Simmonds, but again, he's much better at the core elements I'd expect from a flanker as well as having pace and an outrageous leg drive.

The Exeter 'configuration' is made to maximise Simmonds' X factor qualities. I've often tried to analyse it and most of the time he just isn't where I'd expect an 8 or a flanker to be. Take him out of a system that's made to work for him and I'm not sure he'd be anywhere near as effective.

It was similar with Dombrandt - totally different styles but hear me out here ... When he first broke through Robshaw and Clifford did literally ALL of the dog work and Dombrandt floated around looking for good lines to hit. When that 'system' changed and Dombrandt was asked to do more, it took him quite a long while to adjust and he was nowhere near as good - he wasn't making line breaks or offloading and he wasn't much cop at the coal face. He's over that now and has found a way to combine his trademark style with more work rate, but it's taken a while.

My point is, saying Simmonds would work just as well as a flanker outside of the Exeter system is fanciful. He might get there, but he's really have to adapt his game and it would take a long while to adjust. Picking him in a Lions back row for example would be a risk depending on who's with him. Gatland could find a way of doing it with someone like Beirne at '7' (Exeter numbers) and a big carrier like Stander at 6, but that would mean ignoring stellar back row players like Curry or Watson who don't need a system to work for them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I mean more historically rather than specifically now - when he broke onto the scene he looked a very good flanker and was very adapt at the breakdown,
Very comparable to Earl

His skillset has adapted to his role in the Exeter unit, as you said, and he plays a different kind of game now

Ironically I think if he hadn't have been capped at 8 he'd have more caps now - in his early years he flitted between the whole backrow and I think only settled fully at 8 when Waldrom left

He does seem to be one of Eddie's "cap them early, discard them early" players, though. Playing a 22yr old, 6ft nothing player at 8 and directly comparing them to an in form Binny is never going to end well, however 4 years on and with his own skillset he's at least worth another trip into camp

I wouldn't have him as a starter for England (though I would have him over Earl on the bench)

 

[BPM]

Yeah, I think that's fair.

If he doesn't go on the Lions tour, I'd be curious to see him played at 8 with a big 6 like Hill or Martin and maybe Ludlam at 7 (probably the closest to Curry in physicality). That wouldn't exactly be the Exeter set up, but definitely closer to it. However, given we'd be trying it against USA or Canada I'm not really sure how much you could read in to it - even if it was a massive success.

Tours aside, I would also pick him on the bench instead of Earl.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I reckon both Ewers and Simmons would've progressed more if Ewers was the one to go to 8

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So prob Evans out for the season.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I know there are a lot of good young wingers around but I'm surprised that Marley's name hasn't been on the mix more. Rapid and offers more of a power game than the other options.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Such a soft red, didn't look anything in that at all

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What is it with both these sides back chatting
So much walking 10m

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What is it with both these sides back chatting
So much walking 10m

Did you see Marler pick up Cowan and carry him away. My favourite rugby moment of this year, just brilliant.

Both teams full of terrible chat though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Proper try of the year contender

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hate those Quins shirts, always look like the player has bled on them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Brutal for Irish, that - they just can't compete in the tight

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Brilliant from Smith, can't wait until Jones ignores him and he finds a welsh granny.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Losing Harrison, Sleightholme and Painter in the run up to the game is....not ideal, for Saints

Harrison arguably their most influential/important player

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Losing Harrison, Sleightholme and Painter in the run up to the game is....not ideal, for Saints

Harrison arguably their most influential/important player

One of our only decent carriers. I think the bigger loss is Iseiwke being replaced by wood.