[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (11/11/2017)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rusty is putting that a nice way.

Liked Mako, Lawes, Underhill, Hughes, Ford, Loz and Watson though.


Faz and Loz need to be our 12's
Would be tempted to look at Slade at 13 next week.

Hopefully May is fit as want to see May, Watson and Daly together esp with Ford looking at doing some long miss passes.

 

[ncurd]

Would of liked to hold out on that one but eh fairly average game.

Mako MoM? Think Hughes was most deserving today.

 

[FNS]

This England team is playing at 70% their capacity? maybe? With the kicks we could have put pressure on them and maybe they made a few more mistakes. Overall bad rugby match.

 

[RedruthRFC]

My understanding is that it is taking a player out in the air in this instance. I believe the "contest" in this instance was cynical.

Yes Brown jumped higher as he was clearly contesting for the ball whereas Tuculet appears to be jumping for the ball but he was clearly not contesting for possession. IE cynical play.

The phrase that sums this situation up "plausible deniability". It seems to apply to more and more controversial situations these days. It's such a touch situation, on the one hand, you can argue that Tuculet had little or no chance of winning the ball, so this was no form of contest whatsoever just an attempt to disrupt Brown in a manner that put him in danger (read: plausible deniability). On the other, you could argue that he had a tiny chance of winning the ball so it was a fair contest, so just a penalty.

Having just looked up the laws (10.4) before hitting post, I'm pleasantly surprised to find that they give clearer guidance than I had expected. One point that I don't remember seeing mentioned thus far is that the laws say that both players must be in a "reasonable position to catch the ball". Only if this is the case, can the sanction be a penalty. "Reasonable" is obviously a subjective term (thanks for that lawmakers), but the more I look at the clip, which shows Tuculet much later getting into the air and as a result of his rush to get up, only getting a foot or so off the ground, the more I think that you can't deem him to have been "reasonable position to catch the ball". The commentator seemed to think that it was significant that he got a hand on the ball, but as Brown had already caught it by then, I don't believe it is.

The difference between a yellow and a red is a bit hazier, yellows mention the player landing on his back or side where as reds mention landing in a dangerous position. It also mentions it being reckless or deliberate foul play. I don't think the latter applies, but if you agree that Tuculet wasn't in a "reasonable position to catch the ball", then surely the former applies in 100% of these situations.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We looked disinterested and passive in huge swathes of that. Eddie loves Faz and Brown because they're aggressive and constantly up for the fight. We need more of those characters to set the tone for the team, especially up front. Itoje's one, Genge is another, Hartley used to be one. I think Loz has a bit of that about him too.

Result, against a poor side, was never in doubt but it was all a bit imprecise and nice.

 

[Scotty]

I rate slade massivly, he is a great player who deserves his shot 100% but ffs hes not had a good game and the things he does week in week out for chiefs. He hasnt ended his chances and deserves another shot vs samoa but not against Australia.

Loz...fair play. Me big chiefs fan and one of my fave players is slade but with faz back loz on bench not slade IMO

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Slade's a strange one where he seems to have gone from being an ideal bench option; covering 10, 12, 13, 15, to now only being any use at 13, which Daly already covers. I think he deserves to start over JJ but if he's not starting then 100% Loz on the bench.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I rate slade massivly, he is a great player who deserves his shot 100% but ffs hes not had a good game and the things he does week in week out for chiefs. He hasnt ended his chances and deserves another shot vs samoa but not against Australia.

Loz...fair play. Me big chiefs fan and one of my fave players is slade but with faz back loz on bench not slade IMO

i'm sorry but if he isn't good enough for a game against Aus then why should he play ahead of someone like Francis or Loz at 12 v samoa? He's 24 not 19/20.

He's a 13 not a 10/12 despite what people seem to think and he needs to focus on 13. JJ should be worried cause he was pretty anonymous and has not been pulling up trees for bath from what i gather.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yet to see the work at the set piece or attack showing. Actually feel we are going backwards this year.

 

[Wendigo7]

Set piece was fine, attack when we had the ball was fine.

Argentina came with a plan, break the game up, stop rhythm and make it difficult for England to get possession. More and more teams have twigged this, this year and you know what, we don't have an answer for it.

Plus: Ford (thought he was fantastic all game in a sea of shite), Hughes had a cracker and Underhill was Underhill. Make made 20 tackles after 70 mins. Loz as well with good impact.

Negatives: Slade - He makes too many mistakes to be an international player. He's not good enough, I'm sorry he's not. In fact I blame alot of it on him because every bloody attack in a good position he screwed up, every time. Second issue was actually we were getting beat up. We would give away possession and they would ping us back in our half and we actually couldn't get out. Argentina's territory game was good, scrummed well and tactically basically although Eddie probably knew this, the players couldn't deal with it and that's a big worry. When we get beat up in the forwards we really struggle to do anything.

About the attack - Teams are rushing extremely hard on the 13 currently. They know we want to play wide but we currently aren't getting go forward from the forwards. We need more carriers in the forwards and we aren't generating the forward like we could with Billy last year and that's the big issue.

 

[Scotty]

i'm sorry but if he isn't good enough for a game against Aus then why should he play ahead of someone like Francis or Loz at 12 v samoa? He's 24 not 19/20.

He's a 13 not a 10/12 despite what people seem to think and he needs to focus on 13. JJ should be worried cause he was pretty anonymous and has not been pulling up trees for bath from what i gather.

He is good enough thats not the issue he has just had a bad day at the office and hasnt earned his place in the squad for aus but against samoa i think he needs to be given a shot at 13 not 12. JJ has been anonymous your right. Francias hasnt had game time and loz earned his shot against aus but cant discount slade out of hand cos of a bad game.

 

[RedruthRFC]

About the attack - Teams are rushing extremely hard on the 13 currently. They know we want to play wide but we currently aren't getting go forward from the forwards. We need more carriers in the forwards and we aren't generating the forward like we could with Billy last year and that's the big issue.

This is the crux of another frustrating game as an England supporter for me, 'twas thus against Ireland and again today. Things are improving in this regard with Lawes working on his carrying and Genge poking his head above the parapet, fingers crossed it continues. If and when Sinkler takes over from Cole, Genge from Marler and George from Hartley with LCD stepping up, things look rosier again.

 

[MarkyH]

People ripping on Slade for little reason. We don't have anyone else at 12, including Farrell that could've changed the game today. Unless Tuilagi or Te'o get fit. Slade was ok, not great but not bad either. Argentina tactically very astute, to be expected for a team that plays together all year round.

I'll take that. First game in a while, against a team that are well gelled. Its ok. That's all

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

People ripping on Slade for little reason. We don't have anyone else at 12, including Farrell that could've changed the game today. Unless Tuilagi or Te'o get fit. Slade was ok, not great but not bad either. Argentina tactically very astute, to be expected for a team that plays together all year round.

I'll take that. First game in a while, against a team that are well gelled. Its ok. That's all

Expect for the guy that came on at 12 and immediately did something.....

 

[BPM]

People ripping on Slade for little reason. We don't have anyone else at 12, including Farrell that could've changed the game today. Unless Tuilagi or Te'o get fit. Slade was ok, not great but not bad either. Argentina tactically very astute, to be expected for a team that plays together all year round.

I'll take that. First game in a while, against a team that are well gelled. Its ok. That's all

Slade wasn't as bad as some have suggested, but for a player who is lauded for his playmaking ability, some of those passes were unforgivable.

I think he was trying too hard, but when someone like Lozowski comes on and immediately makes more telling contributions, I'm not sure what he did to warrant another start next week.

In fairness, JJ was anonymous, but then how many times did we actually do anything with the ball?

 

[MarkyH]

Hey I'm not dissing Loz either, his break was fantastic. Against a tired defence, but Loz deserves another run out in the AIs

I think he did try to hard, and he remains the Le Tissier of English rugby. He didn't do bad enough not to be in the squad, but he could've had a stunning game and it would still be Ford and Faz at 10/12 and that's how it should be tbh. Slade is ideal in 23. Just wish we had more power ready in the backs.

JJ was anonymous, but again had little to work with. We weren't powerful enough, we boxed kicked too much and didn't play enough phase and recycle play... We need more basics and less kicking

 

[MarkyH]

To add, SCW spoke sense before the game and at HT. Stop kicking possession away, or at least kick into space. Tackle rules under the high ball make the play completely ridiculous and should never be an option, you're better going long !

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This is the crux of another frustrating game as an England supporter for me, 'twas thus against Ireland and again today. Things are improving in this regard with Lawes working on his carrying and Genge poking his head above the parapet, fingers crossed it continues. If and when Sinkler takes over from Cole, Genge from Marler and George from Hartley with LCD stepping up, things look rosier again.

Agreed, although I'm far more concerned about the lack of line breakers in the backs. The pack's OK, but not dominant, but if I had one wish it would be for a Teo or a Manu. Even if they have limited skill sets they can still create go forward and break tackles creating space for others. JJ and Daly's skills are wasted if they're not given space to operate. Today we'd have been better off with Banahan on the wing. Maybe.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No one is saying Slade is a bad player or shouldn't be given another chance in an England shirt but he just doesn't look like a 12.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I do find it concerning that he always starts making erratic decisions in an England shirt though. He may not be in his preferred position but some of the crazy stuff he does would indicate his judgement of when it is on or isn't is lacking, at least in an England shirt. I believe today he was responsible for more errors of judgement than any other player on the pitch. I'm a big fan of Slade and want him to succeed but he repeatedly keeps looking like a guy who just can't deal with internationals.