[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (11/11/2017)

[BPM]

I do find it concerning that he always starts making erratic decisions in an England shirt though. He may not be in his preferred position but some of the crazy stuff he does would indicate his judgement of when it is on or isn't is lacking, at least in an England shirt. I believe today he was responsible for more errors of judgement than any other player on the pitch. I'm a big fan of Slade and want him to succeed but he repeatedly keeps looking like a guy who just can't deal with internationals.

I agree. It's like he knows he has limited chances to make an impression so tries to force it and makes bad decisions.

As I said a few posts back, I don't think he was terrible, but he definitely didn't put in the sort of performance to convince anyone he's any better than a squad player. Te'o is a lot less talented player but looks far more comfortable at test level.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Lovely patience and continuity by Argentina for their try. A loss, but one that should not send Hourcade closer to the exit.

Good to see the Pumas find some fighting spirit. It will make it more satisfying when Italy conquer them next week!

 

[TommiG88]

People ripping on Slade for little reason. We don't have anyone else at 12, including Farrell that could've changed the game today. Unless Tuilagi or Te'o get fit. Slade was ok, not great but not bad either. Argentina tactically very astute, to be expected for a team that plays together all year round.

I'll take that. First game in a while, against a team that are well gelled. Its ok. That's all

To be fair, Slade had a horrible game

 

[ratsapprentice]

To actually be fair, he made two awful passes/offloads, but without the ball, he was very good.

 

[Scotty]

Yeh i cant remember him missing many tackles or letting anything through, he just forced every pass and didnt relax into the game.

I dont know if for him it would have been better to be on the bench and loz start, and come on when england had the lead and less pressure on him, i think it will take a few games against lesser teams before he starts firing for england.

He has the talant to be great but its worth investing abit of time into him, like fords kicking 1 game he might miss kick after kick but doesnt mean isnt good enough to kick for england.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd like to see Loz/Slade centre combo at some point.
Don't think Slade was half as bad as some posts make it seem, but he wasn't great. Certainly don't think he should play 12 when we have other options.
As mentioned somewhere way above: JJ didn't have a big game, and he's not had a big start to the season, so I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him dropped for a game or so.

 

[TommiG88]

I'd like to see Loz/Slade centre combo at some point.
Don't think Slade was half as bad as some posts make it seem, but he wasn't great. Certainly don't think he should play 12 when we have other options.
As mentioned somewhere way above: JJ didn't have a big game, and he's not had a big start to the season, so I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him dropped for a game or so.

Slade was horrible in a sense; where he was the worst England player on the field, and truly no player had an awful game.

From my perspective at the ground, Underhill was my man of the match.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Worst of a middling bunch is a fair assessment

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Slade was horrible in a sense; where he was the worst England player on the field, and truly no player had an awful game.

From my perspective at the ground, Underhill was my man of the match.

Having said that the inability to slow the ruck ball down of the Argies and the non-existent turnover threat just allowed them to do those pick and drives. We've gone full blown league defence completely ignoring the breakdown. Better teams WILL punish us by simply keeping the speed of the game too high for our defence, as the Argies did with the pick and drives at the end. As a matter of fact our ruck fringe defence was atrocious, they never seemed to cotton on that that is the Argie fullback tactic when all else has failed and yet our ruck defenders kept getting caught napping repeatedly. One time the Argies ran right through the ruck because the defender had been taken out and Dan Cole was completely oblivious to the fact there was no defender to his right within about 5m of the ruck. That lack of awareness really shouldn't happen at this level.

Also we are still just doing telegraphed 1 out passes to forwards trotting along slowly meaning they keep running into 2 or 3 defenders. Come on Jones, where is the deception and variation in attack? We need an alternative to just passing along the line to a bunch of walking players until one finally decides to run into the ready defenders. No people running viable dummy lines. It really get annoying watching them repeating the same tactic numerous times against a defence that is ready for it. If we don't start getting more flowing attack sorted sharpish then England will get stuck like Wales have.

 

[FNS]

Lovely patience and continuity by Argentina for their try. A loss, but one that should not send Hourcade closer to the exit.

Good to see the Pumas find some fighting spirit. It will make it more satisfying when Italy conquer them next week!

HAHA they can totally win. A loss at Italy is the bye bye tkt for Hourcade.

 

[galumay]

Not a great match to watch as a neutral, I guess England did enough and thats all thats required.

I expect we will see a different team next week, the Wobblies will have a challenge on their hands to increase their winning run.

 

[Wendigo7]

Having said that the inability to slow the ruck ball down of the Argies and the non-existent turnover threat just allowed them to do those pick and drives. We've gone full blown league defence completely ignoring the breakdown. Better teams WILL punish us by simply keeping the speed of the game too high for our defence, as the Argies did with the pick and drives at the end. As a matter of fact our ruck fringe defence was atrocious, they never seemed to cotton on that that is the Argie fullback tactic when all else has failed and yet our ruck defenders kept getting caught napping repeatedly. One time the Argies ran right through the ruck because the defender had been taken out and Dan Cole was completely oblivious to the fact there was no defender to his right within about 5m of the ruck. That lack of awareness really shouldn't happen at this level.

Also we are still just doing telegraphed 1 out passes to forwards trotting along slowly meaning they keep running into 2 or 3 defenders. Come on Jones, where is the deception and variation in attack? We need an alternative to just passing along the line to a bunch of walking players until one finally decides to run into the ready defenders. No people running viable dummy lines. It really get annoying watching them repeating the same tactic numerous times against a defence that is ready for it. If we don't start getting more flowing attack sorted sharpish then England will get stuck like Wales have.

If teams just fan out and don't buy any gimmicks, it's like running into a wall, there's not alot you can do but plugging away.

 

[NDC89]

If teams just fan out and don't buy any gimmicks, it's like running into a wall, there's not alot you can do but plugging away.

I think the point he is making is that we aren't trying a huge amount of gimmicks for people to have to buy.

 

[Nudger]

The phrase that sums this situation up "plausible deniability". It seems to apply to more and more controversial situations these days. It's such a touch situation, on the one hand, you can argue that Tuculet had little or no chance of winning the ball, so this was no form of contest whatsoever just an attempt to disrupt Brown in a manner that put him in danger (read: plausible deniability). On the other, you could argue that he had a tiny chance of winning the ball so it was a fair contest, so just a penalty.

Having just looked up the laws (10.4) before hitting post, I'm pleasantly surprised to find that they give clearer guidance than I had expected. One point that I don't remember seeing mentioned thus far is that the laws say that both players must be in a "reasonable position to catch the ball". Only if this is the case, can the sanction be a penalty. "Reasonable" is obviously a subjective term (thanks for that lawmakers), but the more I look at the clip, which shows Tuculet much later getting into the air and as a result of his rush to get up, only getting a foot or so off the ground, the more I think that you can't deem him to have been "reasonable position to catch the ball". The commentator seemed to think that it was significant that he got a hand on the ball, but as Brown had already caught it by then, I don't believe it is.

The difference between a yellow and a red is a bit hazier, yellows mention the player landing on his back or side where as reds mention landing in a dangerous position. It also mentions it being reckless or deliberate foul play. I don't think the latter applies, but if you agree that Tuculet wasn't in a "reasonable position to catch the ball", then surely the former applies in 100% of these situations.

 

[Nudger]

Yep late and red

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The dummy runners have to be convincing. Or we could get really radical and try something different to mix it up, like a driving maul....those things where you make ground, keep the ball and tie in defenders. It all feels a bit pre-programmed and forced.

If we really are ranked 2nd it doesn't say much for the rest of the world.

 

[Nudger]

Set piece was fine, attack when we had the ball was fine.

Argentina came with a plan, break the game up, stop rhythm and make it difficult for England to get possession. More and more teams have twigged this, this year and you know what, we don't have an answer for it.

Plus: Ford (thought he was fantastic all game in a sea of shite), Hughes had a cracker and Underhill was Underhill. Make made 20 tackles after 70 mins. Loz as well with good impact.

Negatives: Slade - He makes too many mistakes to be an international player. He's not good enough, I'm sorry he's not. In fact I blame alot of it on him because every bloody attack in a good position he screwed up, every time. Second issue was actually we were getting beat up. We would give away possession and they would ping us back in our half and we actually couldn't get out. Argentina's territory game was good, scrummed well and tactically basically although Eddie probably knew this, the players couldn't deal with it and that's a big worry. When we get beat up in the forwards we really struggle to do anything.

About the attack - Teams are rushing extremely hard on the 13 currently. They know we want to play wide but we currently aren't getting go forward from the forwards. We need more carriers in the forwards and we aren't generating the forward like we could with Billy last year and that's the big issue.

Everyone struggles if your forwards can't keep the ball can't believe the amount of knockons and penalties we gave away

 

[Scotty]

With a head injury like browns that would put him out for the rest of the tour i imagine. So many people will be happy haha, 11 daly 15 watson 14 may. I hope watson does excel there and he seemed safe under high balls and cant remember any real mistakes.

So after yesterday what is the general thoughts on slades future with england?

 

[NDC89]

With a head injury like browns that would put him out for the rest of the tour i imagine. So many people will be happy haha, 11 daly 15 watson 14 may. I hope watson does excel there and he seemed safe under high balls and cant remember any real mistakes.

So after yesterday what is the general thoughts on slades future with england?

I'd give him another chance... He wasn't as bad as made out for me, he just didn't really do anything particuarly well either.

 

[galumay]

....I don't think the latter applies, but if you agree that Tuculet wasn't in a "reasonable position to catch the ball", then surely the former applies in 100% of these situations.

I thought it was a YC when I saw it, obviously the refs saw it as both contesting the ball, and on that basis their decision was correct. I think its fair to say that about 8 times out of 10 that sort of collison and timing would result in a YC, but there will always be times where some observers of the game disagree with the perception held by the referees.