Martyn Williams slams Guinness Premiership

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Is he right or is he just being smug?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbyn...ms-slams-guinness-premiership-91466-26253530/

MARTYN WILLIAMS last night put the boot into the Guinness Premiership following England’s Heineken Cup meltdown.

The Wales great rubbed more salt into gaping English wounds following Northampton Saints’ Heineken Cup bashing at Munster.


That 33-18 defeat in Limerick marked England’s capitulation form the European showpiece, sparking soul-searching at the likes of Leicester Tigers, Bath and Northampton, who have all lifted club rugby’s most sought-after northern hemisphere prize.


Past Heineken winners London Wasps are the only English side remaining in contention for European glory, albeit in the second tier Amlin Challenge Cup.


They face the Blues at High Wycombe’s Adams Park in the semi-finals on May 1 with Williams raising questions about the style and standard of rugby being witnessed the other side of the border with Wales.


The Lions flanker claimed the Blues’ crucial Magners League clash with the Scarlets in Llanelli tomorrow would be much harder than their stroll at Kingston Park against Newcastle Falcons.
“It’s probably going to be our toughest game of the year,†declared Williams.


“We are going to have to go up 20 to 30 per cent from last weekend.â€


Blues clipped the wings of the Falcons with seven stunning tries during an astonishing 55-20 victory over the Guinness outfit in the quarter-finals of the Amlin.


And Williams, Wales’ most-capped forward and a hugely-respected figure in world rugby, reignited the big debate over the merit of the Magners League and England’s Premiership.


“The Magners is a lot more competitive than the Guinness is,†he maintained.


“It’s (the Guinness Premiership) very set-piece dominated.


“They have obviously got big packs and like to get through a lot of kicking, relying on driving lineouts and scrums, whereas, in the Magners League, teams like to throw the ball around.â€


It’s the first time since 2003 England will not have any representation in the last four of the Heineken Cup, resulting in jibes Red Rose rugby is paying the price for the boring, safety-first tactics adopted by some teams.


Statistics back Western Mail columnist and occasional Wales captain Williams’ argument with every team in the Magners League, bar Connacht, having scored more tries than the bottom four of the Guinness, despite playing far fewer matches.


Seventy four matches in the Celtic tournament have yielded 242 tries to England’s 330 from 113 fixtures with the ratio of tries being superior in the Magners.


Top try-scorers Ospreys have rattled up 31, one more than Munster. Gloucester, who are orchestrated by Wales No 10 cap Nicky Robinson, are England’s best with 38.


Williams’ assessment of the rival leagues ties in with that of Warren Gatland. The Wales coach incurred the wrath of powerbrokers in England after firing a verbal salvo across the border earlier this season.


Gatland, who delivered Heineken, Challenge Cup and Premiership glory while boss of Wasps had claimed:“I think the Guinness Premiership, having watched the games, is the weakest Premiership I have seen since I have been up here.â€


Munster’s Ireland star Ronan O’Gara has also branded the Premiership overrated and accused English players of thinking they are better than they are.


And New Zealand scrum-half legend Justin Marshall, who nows plays for English club Saracens, insisted, when he was with Ospreys, the Celtic tournament featuring teams from Wales, Ireland and Scotland was better than the Guinness.


“From what I’ve experienced, I don’t believe the Magners League plays second fiddle to the Premiership,†said the straight-talking Marshall.


“As much as it might not like to be heard in England, the overall standard of rugby is probably a bit higher in the Celtic league than the Premiership.


“And I know why that is. It’s because there is no relegation in the Magners.


“After about half a dozen rounds in the Premiership four or five teams just played to survive and it created a really negative mind-set in the players.


“As a player, if you’ve got that overwhelming sense of fate at the end of the season you are never ever going to express yourself on a rugby field.


“You are afraid to try things and afraid to make mistakes. You don’t have that here (in Wales, Ireland and Scotland).


“You have the freedom to express yourself.


“If you lose games and you end up bottom of the table, it’s not your livelihood, it’s not your job.
“At least you’ve tried, whereas if you try things in the Premiership, it can count against you.


“The rugby is just more enterprising in the Magners League. There’s a more positive mindset

I think there's some truth in what Williams, Gatland, O'Gara and Marshall all say. The top Magners League teams (Leinster, Munster and Ospreys) are some distance better than the best in the Premiership in my opinion. Others like Cardiff Blues and the Scottish regions are very competitive.



What the ML lacks over the GP is crowds and money. The Welsh, Scottish (and next season Italian) regions have no real history and thus fans don't have the same emotional attachment to them. England's population dwarfs that of Wales, Scotland and Ireland and the extra TV revenue that brings guarantees more funding to promote the game. That results in the Premiership getting greater coverage than the Magners League. Sky in particular tend to hype average English players to the hilt only to see them shown up when faced by oversees teams (Shaun Perry, James Haskell, Ryan Lamb, Anthony Allen, Courtney Lawes, Matt Banahan and James Simpson Daniel being just a select few examples of the Barnes/Morris hype machine).

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I agree that the GP is not as great as what people make out but neither is the ML. I look at clubs like Connacht and Glasgow they are real 'poor' clubs in the ML.

For me the region system is not working in Wales and to be honest it needs to be sorted. We have players not getting game time and some of them have the potential to play for Wales. Look at the GP, England can select from over 10 teams and Wales? Just 4. I know you can bring up stats of registered players but Wales has talents in its ranks but where are these lads going to get game time. Gatland has said that if you are not playing in Wales then you are not really eligible for selection.

Players such as Nicky Robinson, Jaime Robinson, Nick McLeod, Rhys Gill, Lee Thomas, Dwayne Peel, Mefin Davies, Eifion Lewis Roberts, Gareth Delve, Ben Broster are often looked over. Yes Delve and Peel have been selected recently as well as Rhys Gill but there are a number of Welsh players playing overseas that over looked and for me the majority in that list cannot be overlooked. Delve move to the Rebles raised a concern for me. Why would a player who has broken again into the Welsh setup want to move away from it? Yes the money is there but it goes back to a story I was told a while back about Gatland and Peel. Gatland has issues with certain players, and that is the reason why Phillips will always start infront of Peel when fit.

Money is there in the GP as you said because of crowds and money but also you think about it the games are all played in one country that are reasonably close together with high population density. Go to the ML its going to be spread between 4 countries next season. Tv revenue is poor for the ML and something they should look at. But to be honest I prefer if the rugby stayed on BBC and S4C as they do have better pundits for me than SKY do.

 

[Teh Mite]

Oh good, this again...

 

[munstermuffin]

I think the ML is better in some ways.
But people could argue both have team that struggle like Connacht and Dragons are consistently down near bottom but in GP so are Worchester and whatever team comes up (exception been Saints few years back)
I think it slightly different in terms that ML teams don't have as much cash but argument about Crowds i think is false as both leagues get similar crowds depending on teams.
It is at times when you look at ML vs GP (for Non-English players) a matter of Money vs Love of Game.

I also think it's wrong to compare based on this years European campaigns but there is pro's and con's for both sides.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

but argument about Crowds i think is false as both leagues get similar crowds depending on teams.

I don't have the stats in front of me but as far as I recall, Leinster, Munster and Cardiff are the only teams in the ML who average over 10,000 fans per home game. In the Premiership something like 8 of the 12 teams average over 10,000. The Scottish teams and Connacht get shag all fans through the gate.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yeah but like there is a difference like the Regions - Glasgow and Edinburgh Stadiums are not in best locations.

Scarletts are similar & Connacht just need to build rugby base again.
But the rest of the teams to show decent averages.
Also the GP dont have other problems such as Supporters of Clubs (AIL, Welsh League) go to them matches and these games occasionally clash with ML games.
In Limerick for example last week - Same day Munster played Northampton you had the biggest city clash (Shannon vs Garryowen). I know that was H'Cup but these problems occur in ML too.

 

[durbutter]

Dolphin played Con too

 

[munstermuffin]

Exactly like and I know Munster have massive support base but there is some people when AIL clashes with ML they will pick AIL

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Is he right or is he just being smug?


I think there's some truth in what Williams, Gatland, O'Gara and Marshall all say. The top Magners League teams (Leinster, Munster and Ospreys) are some distance better than the best in the Premiership in my opinion. Others like Cardiff Blues and the Scottish regions are very competitive.

I agree that Munster and Leinster are currently better than the top guiness premier sides, but to me, and you may disagree, the reasons for this are quite straight forward; with magners league being the top competition for Irish teams to compete in, there are very few top Irish club sides( Ulster to me are average, connaught below average, and leinster and munster are obviously very good), but the fact is if you're a top Irish international and you want to play in Ireland for a top Irish club side, you only have a few choices. To me this is why the Ireland national team is essentially Leinster + munster. Similarly with the Welsh teams, I think Cardiff Blues are good and Ospreys great but again they are essentially the welsh national side .

In the Guiness premiership internationals are more evenly spread out through the league, and I do think this has made it a more competitve league, but perhaps thats why there are fewer exceptional teams.

 

[gingergenius]

Every year there are several Celtic players who say something rude about the Guinness Premiership.

What they forget is that the only Magners League sides who ever do well in Europe are Munster and Leinster, who are basically the Irish national squad + a few choice foreigners, as Henry says.

Yes, the Premiership is certainly not as good as it was when Wasps and Leicester were the 2 best teams in Europe in the mid 00s. But England's best are spread across 12 teams; and there's a salary cap so there aren't too many big name foreigners. Ireland's are spread across 4, arguably 3 teams, samme for Wales, and only 2 teams for Scotland, and they can be rested whenever because there's no pressure of relegation in the ML. And the French have £££s.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Agree entire;y with GingerGenius.

And I think the spread of players more evenly in the GP is clear in the way that any of the teams still in contention for the playoffs, (Leicester Saints Sarries Wasps Bath and the Not Not's),still have the potential to win the league. Also Gloucester with a more consistent season could have been in contention. Within the last two years Sale and Quins have been extremely comnpetitive too, (shame about bloodgate and Sale's exodus of quality players). All of these teams have had the potential to go far.

To be honest in the magners vleague, as much as we can say "but look how well edinburgh and glasgow are doing", we'd still be pretty surprised if anyone other than leinster munster or ospreys won the ***le. ML is a good league but I dont envy it at all.