[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[All Black]

The lack of Ebens presence isn't the end of the world because we have good depth at lock, Marx on the other hand is a beast and sorely missed.

Those 2 are a headache for our boys.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think Eddie's comments about seeing the forwards as a "front three" and "back five" are clearly a true representation of his feelings. I can only guess that this has been informed by his time in Japan, where he didn't have very many guys who were over 6'5" and had to make do. In theory, I can understand it - 6'5" is about as tall as you can be before you start to have poor leverages in the tight and your CNS exhibits a clear latency issue. But in reality? Not convinced.

Nor me!

As an ex lock, I wonder what Borthwick thinks about this.

How big are the Saffer locks? At least we're spared the possibility of seeing Itoje and Shields against Etzebeth and de Jäger.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think Eddie's comments about seeing the forwards as a "front three" and "back five" are clearly a true representation of his feelings. I can only guess that this has been informed by his time in Japan, where he didn't have very many guys who were over 6'5" and had to make do. In theory, I can understand it - 6'5" is about as tall as you can be before you start to have poor leverages in the tight and your CNS exhibits a clear latency issue. But in reality? Not convinced.

Nor me!

As an ex lock, I wonder what Borthwick thinks about this.

How big are the Saffer locks? At least we're spared the possibility of seeing Itoje and Shields against Etzebeth and de Jäger.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

For me I'm happy with this really.

Little changes but steps in the right direction.
6N's - Dropped Hartley
Pre Summer tour - Dropped Cole
Pre first test - Plays Daly at 15 obviously looking at other options than Brown.
Second test - Drops Robshaw completely.

 

[Big_Grumper]

@SomeOke What's the deal with playing PsdT at 7? He's a lock. Surely there are better options at 7 and who play there week in, week out?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

@SomeOke What's the deal with playing PsdT at 7? He's a lock. Surely there are better options at 7 and who play there week in, week out?

SA 7 is our blindside.

 

[Big_Grumper]

SA 7 is our blindside.

So it's a tactical thing to nullify our play?

 

[unrated]

Springbok Team
15 Willie le Roux, 14 S'bu Nkosi, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 RG Snyman, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Beast Mtawarira.
Subs: 16 Akker van der Merwe, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Sikumbuzo Notshe, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Ivan van Zyl, 22 Jesse Kriel, 23 Warrick Gelant.

Jesse Kriel in for Elton at 22
Despite the fact that this leaves us with no fly-half cover (Willie probably, with Faf goal kicking), I kind of like this change, Elton isn't an impact player, so I'd rather add someone who could impact the game.


Changes are fine but it's pretty much the same team.

I would have included Robert du Preez instead of Jesse Kriel as cover for Fly halve. Maybe Jesse could start then in place of AM.
I would have also preferred for PSDT to start at lock in place of Mostert. So that we could keep Jean-Luc du Preez in the starting team.
But I think JLDP will make a good impact sub with Akker and Kitshoff nonetheless In the second half. Seems like coaches really like the qualities that South Africa's second best lock brings at flank.

Nor me!

As an ex lock, I wonder what Borthwick thinks about this.

How big are the Saffer locks? At least we're spared the possibility of seeing Itoje and Shields against Etzebeth and de Jäger.

We are playing with 3 locks, PSDT being the third one.
Franco Mostert: Height: 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) @ 112 kg
RG Snyman: Height: 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) @120 kg
Pieter Steph du Toit: Height: 2.00 m (6 ft 6 ¹⁄₂ in) @120 kg

Our new 7 PSDT will basically call the lineouts in Saturdays game as he is our most experienced lock, don't be fooled by his 7 starting position.

Jean luc du Preez whos is on the bench will come on as a flank in the second half but he often participates in the lineouts as he is also
1.94 m (6 ft 4 ¹⁄₂ in) @ 113 kg

@SomeOke What's the deal with playing PsdT at 7? He's a lock. Surely there are better options at 7 and who play there week in, week out?

I don't think its tactical at all. my guess is that Rassie felt that our two locks played very well in the first game so he cant drop them now. But PSDT is our best (fit) lock by far and Rassie would want him in our starting lineup, the only reason he didn't start the England game was because he captained the side in America. So instead of replacing one of the in-form locks he rather brings in PSDT for Jean Luc du Preez, as he could not really bring him in for Kolisi.
PSDT fortunately has good qualities to play as a loose forward.

 

[SomeOke]

So it's a tactical thing to nullify our play?

Nah, PTSD is seen as a hybrid lock / blindside, a bit like a Danie Russouw. He's had some poor games at 7, but also some strong.
The thinking was probably - Pieter Steph du Toit is a mainstay, and was always going to play in the second test after he had a rest since he captained the side against Wales in America.
He could slot in for either RG Snyman or Jean luc du Preez - RG was one of our best, JLDP was one of our worst, so we drop the worse performing player.

 

[Durbanite]

On board with this team except I really really think Esterhuizen should be our starting 12. DDA is just an empty shirt for me these days, and Esterhuizen's ball skills make Am a lot more deadly aswell imo. The amount of go-forward the Sharks have gotten in SR from Am's running lines and Esterhuizen's chicken wings is no joke. Not to mention he has a monster boot and his ability to break tackles and offload paired with his attacking awareness and solid defence makes him miles more versatile compared to DDA in my mind. What am I missing? Is DDA back to his old self for the stormers? Because he used to be deadly with the ball in hand, I just don't see that same fire anymore.

Other then that I'm very pleased with the team. Bloem is always interesting, but I fancy our chances to clinch the series this weekend. Faf and Willie are something else, the rest of the guys just have to put in solid performances and allow those two along with Pollard to dictate the flow of the game, nothing fancy just the basics and we should be in a comfortable position.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So it's a tactical thing to nullify our play?

Maybe, it's the same as playing Lawes at 6 for us. but he's a better 6 than Lawes.

 

[SomeOke]

I really don't think it's tactical, we've been doing this for ages, it's not like we gain much bulk and height with PTSD over JLDP he's also a big boy.

edit:

On board with this team except I really really think Esterhuizen should be our starting 12. DDA is just an empty shirt for me these days, and Esterhuizen's ball skills make Am a lot more deadly aswell imo. The amount of go-forward the Sharks have gotten in SR from Am's running lines and Esterhuizen's chicken wings is no joke. Not to mention he has a monster boot and his ability to break tackles and offload paired with his attacking awareness and solid defence makes him miles more versatile compared to DDA in my mind. What am I missing? Is DDA back to his old self for the stormers? Because he used to be deadly with the ball in hand, I just don't see that same fire anymore.

Other then that I'm very pleased with the team. Bloem is always interesting, but I fancy our chances to clinch the series this weekend. Faf and Willie are something else, the rest of the guys just have to put in solid performances and allow those two along with Pollard to dictate the flow of the game, nothing fancy just the basics and we should be in a comfortable position.

I think DDA is doing just enough to not get dropped, he was solid last week, and made good meters with his carries (50 meters for 9 carries). In the end he is the experienced player, the incumbent and did have a strong super rugby. If we play Esterhuizen 11/12/13/14 essentially have a cap each, I think you can rest easy knowing that if DDAs form does dip, Rassie won't hesitate to drop him unlike the previous regime.

 

[unrated]

On board with this team except I really really think Esterhuizen should be our starting 12. DDA is just an empty shirt for me these days, and Esterhuizen's ball skills make Am a lot more deadly aswell imo. The amount of go-forward the Sharks have gotten in SR from Am's running lines and Esterhuizen's chicken wings is no joke. Not to mention he has a monster boot and his ability to break tackles and offload paired with his attacking awareness and solid defence makes him miles more versatile compared to DDA in my mind. What am I missing? Is DDA back to his old self for the stormers? Because he used to be deadly with the ball in hand, I just don't see that same fire anymore.

Other then that I'm very pleased with the team. Bloem is always interesting, but I fancy our chances to clinch the series this weekend. Faf and Willie are something else, the rest of the guys just have to put in solid performances and allow those two along with Pollard to dictate the flow of the game, nothing fancy just the basics and we should be in a comfortable position.

Yea DDA had one good moment in the previous test where he spinned out of a tackle to make a nice pass that led to a try. But that first try that Mike Brown scored was also down to De Allendes poor defending, so if anything we will only gain something by replacing DDA with Esterhuizen.




Watch this video, at 50 seconds you will see DDA attempting to tackle Mike Brown from roughly 7 meters away from the try line. But he just has this weak attempt and Brown scores. How does a Springbok level 12 have such bad tackling skills?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Mike Brown is literally undroppable.
Disappointed to see him still there.
Disappointed to see Itoje in the 15.
Ecstatic to see Robshaw dropped.

 

[SomeOke]

Yea DDA had one good moment in the previous test where he spinned out of a tackle to make a nice pass that led to a try. But that first try that Mike Brown scored was also down to De Allendes poor defending, so if anything we will only gain something by replacing DDA with Esterhuizen.

Hold up, that space was created by Bongi and JLDP tackling one dummy runner, Nkosi rushing forward unnecessarily, Pollard missing the tackle dead, and then DDA's covering tackle was admittedly too weak. DDA's only get's a small part of the blame in my opinion, try is at 20 seconds:

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mike Brown is literally undroppable.
Disappointed to see him still there.
Disappointed to see Itoje in the 15.
Ecstatic to see Robshaw dropped.

Not really just the 2 players that will drop him are injured. Brown moving from 15 is a massive sign he is dropable.
Brown was pants but can see why Eddie is still uncertain of the likes of Solomona and Earle.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Overall I'm rather happy with the changes. PSDT has been playing a lot at 7 this past year, and has shown a vast improvement, so I'm not unhappy about this move. I think it's a straight swap for taking off the player who performed poorly last week, while swapping him for a performing (and vice-captain) this week.

But it also aids the 2 locks, especially at the line-outs, we now have another great line-out jumper, and maul creator in PSDT.

As for the backline, I get the idea Rassie is having, and while we don't have an out and out Fly Half as cover, it's not a trainsmash, as Willie is really accustomed into getting into that position and helping the backline get on the front foot, while tactically we will have Gelant, De Klerk and Van Zyl that can take the lineout kicks along with Willie, while Van Zyl, Le Roux and De Klerk has all taken kicks at goal.

Kriel on the Bench is an improvement.

Big improvement for me is Malherbe coming in on tighthead. One of the best TH we have, and an overall more dynamic player. Let's hope he's gotten some form after his long layoff stint.

 

[unrated]

Hold up, that space was created by Bongi and JLDP tackling one dummy runner, Nkosi rushing forward unnecessarily, Pollard missing the tackle dead, and then DDA's covering tackle was admittedly too weak. DDA's only get's a small part of the blame in my opinion, try is at 20 seconds:

No I agree he was not solely to blame as Pollard also missed his tackle but
1. It was a weak tackle that led to a try (Highlighting his poor defence)

2.

2. If JLDP or Bongi made a mistake in both committing to the England 8 then DDA also made another positioning mistake by finding himself in exactly the same position as his two forwards. We cant expect our flank to be covering the wing, instead our centre should have helped to cover the wing then he they would not have created that one on one scenario.

With that said I'm weary not to criticize him too much, it was a spilt second decision and it would be harsh to criticize him too heavily for something that the whole team was involved in. His attack is outstanding lets just hope he can do a little bit better on defence this weekend.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think Eddie's comments about seeing the forwards as a "front three" and "back five" are clearly a true representation of his feelings. I can only guess that this has been informed by his time in Japan, where he didn't have very many guys who were over 6'5" and had to make do. In theory, I can understand it - 6'5" is about as tall as you can be before you start to have poor leverages in the tight and your CNS exhibits a clear latency issue. But in reality? Not convinced.

As usual with Eddie Jones, it's tough to find any logical consistency between what he ways and what he does. If he believed in "back 5" players, then why did he sub a lock for a blindside so early on last week?

Either way, I'm pretty happy with that. Although it goes without saying that I'd prefer to see a winger on the wing. I get why it would be a slight gamble to chuck the likes of Earle or Woodward on instead of Brown, but frankly, playing Brown there has it's own risks... as we saw last week.

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am to see Solomona on the bench again. Again, trying to think it through logically, Solomona is arguably a better attacking winger than Brown, if Jones sees him as so much worse as a defensive winger to justify passing up the greater attacking threat, then there's no way that Solomona should be anywhere near the XXIII or squad for that matter. The only thing I can think of is that he sees massive value in his leadership / attitude or that he has a massive angrymancrush on him! Stick Brown on the bench if you really need the security blanket and / or don't trust Cipriani / Slade to play there if necessary.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Not really just the 2 players that will drop him are injured. Brown moving from 15 is a massive sign he is dropable.
Brown was pants but can see why Eddie is still uncertain of the likes of Solomona and Earle.

Not really. If you're going to pick them for your match squad, play them. If they're good enough to be in one, they're good enough to be in the other. England have a lot of good wingers - many are no more than that - but all are better than an ageing Brown on the wing.