[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] New Zealand vs. France (16/06/2018)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Westpac Stadium, Wellington​

Time: 09:35 (CAT, GMT+2)​

 

[FrenchFan]

all this citing talk is hilarious. Tree that hides the forest etc.

JB Lafond ex-Racing has compared the union team to playing Romania 20 yrs ago . He says the union team is a complete JOKE. And he's right. They have the coaching staff of a tier 2 nation and play like one.
https://video.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/te...ision-du-rugby-mondial_vid1099889/video.shtml

I fancy NZ to go one better from their record 57-0 of last season over SA in this test or the last one.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...sorry-but-the-all-blacks-are-now-a-dirty-side

Just gonna leave this here... Take from it what you will

 

[mania]

://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...sorry-but-the-all-blacks-are-now-a-dirty-side

Just gonna leave this here... Take from it what you will

how many time are you going to post this and how far back are you going to go looking for negative ABs press?
this is markReason. he rehashes this same article every few years.
if you think ABs are cheats then your going to miss out on the spectacular rugby they'll put on. dont look at one tiny aspect of their rugby and forego the rest of the masterclass.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

how many time are you going to post this and how far back are you going to go looking for negative ABs press?
this is markReason. he rehashes this same article every few years.
if you think ABs are cheats then your going to miss out on the spectacular rugby they'll put on. dont look at one tiny aspect of their rugby and forego the rest of the masterclass.

Just something I saw on Facebook today. Thought it was relevant and interesting, I didn't go looking for it. Never heard of him, but it seems like none of you AB supporters like him.

Also, the ABs do play some fantastic rugby that I do appreciate, I just have my views on their culture and attitude.

(Posted it twice cause I put it in the old thread, before thinking we should probably let that one die and move to the new one)

 

[mania]

Also, the ABs do play some fantastic rugby that I do appreciate, I just have my views on their culture and attitude.

i agree about the culture. its too nice and goody goody. ABs need to take a leaf out of the boks book and start being harda55es. getting sick of this nice team facade and then everyone going on about how ABs cheat.
if we're doing the time then its time we started embracing the crime.
ABs need to embrace cheating and being dirty. ABs are already getting accused of cheating so we may as well show the world how proper intelligent cheating and dirty tactics can be employed.

 

[All Black]

i agree about the culture. its too nice and goody goody. ABs need to take a leaf out of the boks book and start being harda55es. getting sick of this nice team facade and then everyone going on about how ABs cheat.
if we're doing the time then its time we started embracing the crime.
ABs need to embrace cheating and being dirty. ABs are already getting accused of cheating so we may as well show the world how proper intelligent cheating and dirty tactics can be employed.

NO! Just because others call us cheats it doesnt mean we need to turn to the 'darkside'. Im not saying were completely saints as weve had our fair share of dirty play but even if we go super dirty or super clean, others will always find a problem with how we win. As we say in NZ - we just go out there and play our own game.

"You cant please everybody so you might as well please yourself" - Steve Hansen.

 

[BobbyM]

"You cant please everybody so you might as well please yourself" - Steve Hansen.

This!

Also, on the culture point. Given the importance of the ABs to New Zealand overall, and reflecting the defeats at world cups in 2003 and 2007, the culture was apparently transformed under Henry, Hansen and McCaw. There's an excellent book "Legacy: What the All Blacks can teach us about the business of life" about it I would recommend to noah_jo if he wishes to understand the culture and attitude of the all blacks better. It focuses on personal leadership, responsibility, and a need to be a better person, as well as being a better All Black.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Meh. I think the All Black supporters should let this "Cheating" remarks slide off their backs like water off a duck.

The All Black's are masters in looking at loopholes, and trying things and not getting caught. The only reason others mope about it is because their team's doesn't have the nutsacks to try it, or their players aren't smart enough to think of it.

 

[mania]

Meh. I think the All Black supporters should let this "Cheating" remarks slide off their backs like water off a duck.

The All Black's are masters in looking at loopholes, and trying things and not getting caught. The only reason others mope about it is because their team's doesn't have the nutsacks to try it, or their players aren't smart enough to think of it.

i prefer the boks attitude. "we're a tough mean team and we're going to smash you out of this game"
with a sprinkle of bakkiesBotha play thrown in

 

[Immenso]

Just something I saw on Facebook today. Thought it was relevant and interesting, I didn't go looking for it. Never heard of him, but it seems like none of you AB supporters like him.

Also, the ABs do play some fantastic rugby that I do appreciate, I just have my views on their culture and attitude.

(Posted it twice cause I put it in the old thread, before thinking we should probably let that one die and move to the new one)

Haven't read this one.

But, His job is to take an angle that will annoy the most of his readership. E.g. a professional troll.

E.g.
Brendan McCullum scores a match saving triple century. Reason article insinuating match fixing.
Someone gets a knock in a rugby game - All Blacks are thugs
etc etc

I don't read any of the pieces marked opinion in either Fairfax or NZHerald.

If it's the Herald it will most likely be Rattue, if it's Fairfax it will most likely be Reason.

Rattue at least used to be a serious sports journalist, and his main sport was rugby league, who fell into the trolling business when his personality clash with Graham Henry spilt into his writing and he found he got lots of lovely clicks. A new career was born.

Reason has never been a serious sports journalist in his time in NZ, he may have been back in the UK. He is the son of the old dead Times rugby writer. He works from home.

 

[RedruthRFC]

It focuses on personal leadership, responsibility, and a need to be a better person, as well as being a better All Black.

Does anyone really buy all this scmoltz? It smacks of PR / spin to me. The "great men make great All Blacks" is a fantastic line, but it's hard to buy given the long list of (at best) questionable behaviour from All Blacks past and present, including some who would be regarded as greats. Regarding "personal leadership" and taking responsibility, I was surprised in the Amazon documentary that only three of the Bledisloe Cup squad had taken it upon themselves to do any analysis on the Australians.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Does anyone really buy all this scmoltz? It smacks of PR / spin to me. The "great men make great All Blacks" is a fantastic line, but it's hard to buy given the long list of (at best) questionable behaviour from All Blacks past and present, including some who would be regarded as greats. Regarding "personal leadership" and taking responsibility, I was surprised in the Amazon documentary that only three of the Bledisloe Cup squad had taken it upon themselves to do any analysis on the Australians.

Yeah actually that was a strange moment, I know the Aussies got criticised for it last week, but I think Folau was winding people up. The double stamp in the u20s yesterday kinda cements the point that there may be a culture issue though. I mean surely after huge criticism of the Senior Squad, those in the u20s should be taking extra care not to be doing anything thuggish. On it's own, it doesn't bother me too much, although he should be cited (but won't), but just after last week it starts to look pretty bad.
As a ref Rob Debney suggested a couple days ago that he thinks there may be a subconscious leniency towards the All Blacks by referees because of the scrutiny that they come under if the ABs lose, which is what I was saying in the last thread about all dominant teams getting the benefit of the doubt. I'm happy to admit that England were beneficiaries of that when we were on our winning run, our breakdown troubles have been there for a while, we just didn't get penalized for it by refs when we were winning. The lions were also probably beneficiaries of that in the last couple minutes of that tour as well. It Happens.

I will make sure to read that book, but it still seems that there is a culture issue in the AB set up as a whole. There is playing on the edge of the laws (or just hiding the fact that you are breaking them) for sporting superiority, like McCaw was so good at doing, but outright thuggery is a big problem as it brings the game into disrepute.

Stamping in u20's.
Swining arm in u20's to the head of a french player.
Shoulder to the head of a french player, fracturing his skull in two places

Not a good week all in all.

 

[OneBlackEye]

The double stamp in the u20s yesterday kinda cements the point that there may be a culture issue though.

Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean by "culture"?
Like the coaches tell them to try to hurt other players? Or their parents? Or New Zealanders in general are violent?
I'm not even disagreeing with you, I just don't understand what you mean.

All Black threads on here are always full of complaints about "referee bias", "thugs", "cheating", "world rugby bias" and blah blah but no one ever explains WHY they think those things.

If you can't construct a decent argument I'm sorry but you just sounds like sore losers.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean by "culture"?
Like the coaches tell them to try to hurt other players? Or their parents? Or New Zealanders in general are violent?
I'm not even disagreeing with you, I just don't understand what you mean.

All Black threads on here are always full of complaints about "referee bias", "thugs", "cheating", "world rugby bias" and blah blah but no one ever explains WHY they think those things.

If you can't construct a decent argument I'm sorry but you just sounds like sore losers.

I mean the literal definition of culture: "the ideas, customs, and social behavior of a particular people or society". In this case I mean the ideas, customs and social behavior of New Zealand rugby.

Also, I have pretty clearly explained why I think there is a problem with something in NZ rugby culture. It says a lot that after Jerome Kaino was criticised for "thuggery" in targeting Connor Murray and there was a media outcry, SBW got sent off in the next test. There is nothing wrong with targeting a player like every team does, but when your team has come under heavy criticism for what looked like an intention to injure Murray by Kaino (I didn't think it was, but hey ho), coming out and getting a red card in the next game looks reaaaly bad. This mirrors the action in the u20s and senior games in the past week. If someone is trying to start a fire, definitely DO NOT put petrol on it.

Even if all the NZers are gonna disagree with me (also I don't blame you, I would probably try and defend England in this situ), you all have to agree that even if you don't believe there is a cultural problem, the fact that it appears that there is a problem to many others is a problem in itself because it will inevitably lead to lesser involvement if rugby is seemingly conforming to the "brute" stereotype.

So even if you feel you are being hard done by, the union should at least make a concerted effort to make it seem like that is not the case, which it doesn't seem like it is doing. The fact that we are having this conversation is a problem for NZ rugby because it immediately puts it in a bad light, whether that be justified or not.

This conversation has popped up in 2016 after the headshots against Ireland, in 2017 against the Lions (twice) and in 2018 against France. Even if you disagree with the idea of the All Blacks being a dirty side, its a problem for NZ rugby that this conversation happens every year.

 

[OneBlackEye]

I mean the literal definition of culture: "the ideas, customs, and social behavior of a particular people or society". In this case I mean the ideas, customs and social behavior of New Zealand rugby.

Also, I have pretty clearly explained why I think there is a problem with something in NZ rugby culture. It says a lot that after Jerome Kaino was criticised for "thuggery" in targeting Connor Murray and there was a media outcry, SBW got sent off in the next test. There is nothing wrong with targeting a player like every team does, but when your team has come under heavy criticism for what looked like an intention to injure Murray by Kaino (I didn't think it was, but hey ho), coming out and getting a red card in the next game looks reaaaly bad. This mirrors the action in the u20s and senior games in the past week. If someone is trying to start a fire, definitely DO NOT put petrol on it.

Even if all the NZers are gonna disagree with me (also I don't blame you, I would probably try and defend England in this situ), you all have to agree that even if you don't believe there is a cultural problem, the fact that it appears that there is a problem to many others is a problem in itself because it will inevitably lead to lesser involvement if rugby is seemingly conforming to the "brute" stereotype.

So even if you feel you are being hard done by, the union should at least make a concerted effort to make it seem like that is not the case, which it doesn't seem like it is doing. The fact that we are having this conversation is a problem for NZ rugby because it immediately puts it in a bad light, whether that be justified or not.

This conversation has popped up in 2016 after the headshots against Ireland, in 2017 against the Lions (twice) and in 2018 against France. Even if you disagree with the idea of the All Blacks being a dirty side, its a problem for NZ rugby that this conversation happens every year.

Great response.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I struggle to translate it into a players actions on the field. These incidents happen in a split second even though they are analysed in slow motion. It's easy to create a big back story behind them but if you honestly just look at a lot of this stuff in real time and try to think what is going through a players head in the moment I don't think they are thinking and making as many decisions in the moment as some people think they are.

For the record I think Cane should have got a yellow but I also don't think he's done anything intentionally so all the dirty player/bad culture chat afterwards seems over the top to me.

 

[mania]

The fact that we are having this conversation is a problem for NZ rugby because it immediately puts it in a bad light, whether that be justified or not.

ok , so even if youre correct; how is this a problem for nz rugby? how we're perceived by the world doesn't contribute anything to NZ rugby.
i dont see those with negative opinions out on the sidelines supporting local kids rugby, or volunteering to ref, or helping to put on a feed for the after match functions.
thats what nz rugby culture is. the ABs are just the tiny tip of the iceberg of what you call NZ's culture.
first things first we need a winning culture. all this other namby pamby bleeding heart liberal stuff comes after. first we need to concentrate on playing good rugby.
so what if you call us thugs? sweet, it means your not paying attention to the rugby showcase that gets put on. constantly griping about a couple of seconds of rugby and ignoring the remaining 99% of the game is counter productive to the development of your team.
know thyself before you try to get to know your enemy

 

[eidde]

NEW ZEALAND: Jordie Barrett, Ben Smith, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ryan Crotty, Rieko Ioane, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith, Luke Whitelock, Sam Cane, Liam Squire, Scott Barrett, Sam Whitelock (c), Owen Franks, Codie Taylor, Joe Moody.

Reserves: Nathan Harris, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Vaea Fifita, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Damian McKenzie, Ngani Laumape

Let's get this back on track

 

[Immenso]

I mean the literal definition of culture: "the ideas, customs, and social behavior of a particular people or society". In this case I mean the ideas, customs and social behavior of New Zealand rugby.

Also, I have pretty clearly explained why I think there is a problem with something in NZ rugby culture. It says a lot that after Jerome Kaino was criticised for "thuggery" in targeting Connor Murray and there was a media outcry, SBW got sent off in the next test. There is nothing wrong with targeting a player like every team does, but when your team has come under heavy criticism for what looked like an intention to injure Murray by Kaino (I didn't think it was, but hey ho), coming out and getting a red card in the next game looks reaaaly bad. This mirrors the action in the u20s and senior games in the past week. If someone is trying to start a fire, definitely DO NOT put petrol on it.

Even if all the NZers are gonna disagree with me (also I don't blame you, I would probably try and defend England in this situ), you all have to agree that even if you don't believe there is a cultural problem, the fact that it appears that there is a problem to many others is a problem in itself because it will inevitably lead to lesser involvement if rugby is seemingly conforming to the "brute" stereotype.

So even if you feel you are being hard done by, the union should at least make a concerted effort to make it seem like that is not the case, which it doesn't seem like it is doing. The fact that we are having this conversation is a problem for NZ rugby because it immediately puts it in a bad light, whether that be justified or not.

This conversation has popped up in 2016 after the headshots against Ireland, in 2017 against the Lions (twice) and in 2018 against France. Even if you disagree with the idea of the All Blacks being a dirty side, its a problem for NZ rugby that this conversation happens every year.

There's parts in that I agree with. E.g. in the 2016 test v Ireland when as a viewer you could sense the crowd riding the ref on any foul or marginal play and the penalty count was building. For Fekitoa to put in a high tackle was astounding, there were no mitigating circumstances. From that moment I didn't want him in the team. Not because I think he's a thug but I question his temperament or decision making in high pressure situations, was astoundingly stupid.

And I certainly get your point about appearance.

I'd say that in the above is also a perfect set of examples about why NZ fans either dismiss (or get enraged by or get paranoid by) the complaints.

2016: There's one act of foul play ( a high tackle by Fekitoa that got yellow but should have got red) but all the focus and wringing of hands was on the wrong incident (Henshaw getting knocked out). A narrative is created.

2017:
I'm no more concerned about SBWs league instincts getting him in trouble for a shoulder charge, in terms of 'culture', as I was later in the year when he gave away a PT and was yellowed for batting a ball over the deadball line. He was correctly punished. But I am concerned his instincts can cost his team, but only a little bit as he's a good pro, .

Kaino looking for a way to pressue the kicker if the other way is blocked by pillars. Some see Kaino deliberately trying to injure someone. This is where a NZ fan will get their back up over hypocricy. You don't mention the single act of delibertae filthy play in that series - Mako Vunipola's flying elbow at Barret's head. That was pure filth and he was lucky he missed. Even the the words "against the Lions (twice)" shows how the focus is on one side. Why don't the words "by the Lions (twice)" get typed? (Vunipola & O'Brien).

2018: Again. IMO there's focus on 'foul' play when it's not obvious. Did one team get an unlucky yellow and the other team get lucky not to get a yellow? Yes. Are referees and judiciaries inconsistent? Yes.
Not many NZ supporters would be getting their backs up if that was where the narrative ended.
Did an act of deliberate or reckless foul play happen in a 3-way collision with the carrier ducking/collapsing? The outcry far out weighs the acts. Fans get paranoid.

 

[Immenso]

As a ref Rob Debney suggested a couple days ago that he thinks there may be a subconscious leniency towards the All Blacks by referees because of the scrutiny that they come under if the ABs lose, which is what I was saying in the last thread about all dominant teams getting the benefit of the doubt. I'm happy to admit that England were beneficiaries of that when we were on our winning run, our breakdown troubles have been there for a while, we just didn't get penalized for it by refs when we were winning. The lions were also probably beneficiaries of that in the last couple minutes of that tour as well. It Happens.

This is just ludicrous though.
Scrutiny from who?

The NZ media is tiny. The population and therefore NZ fanbase is small.

There will be much more scrutiny if a ref's decision is seen to favour NZ.

At an anecdotal level - How does this theory fit the final referring acts of the 2nd and 3rd Lions tests last year?

Even 'neutral' media get in on the act when a decision is seen to favour NZ. There are journalists from third party countries this week tweeting the Chairman of the IRB and goading him to get involved. This has also happened before with the CEO (Brett Gosper).

I understand this thought process though, I've had the same inbuilt biased victim mentality in another sport - I'm a huge cricket fan and used to get the same rage re: the Australian cricket team in Warne/McGrath era. When I got older and the mist cleared I recognised it as frustration and jealousy, and the fact the better team capitalises on a 50/50 call by turning it into a century and the lesser team turns their 50/50s into just another 10 or 20 only. Or had already been dismissed before their 50/50 was 'due' to come their way .....