June Internationals: Argentina v England, Second Test (15/06/13)

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think having 12 trees back would help us open up the defences a bit more to earn the right to go wide. You don't necessarily need power to suck in defenders, running good lines so you make it over the gain line will have the habit of drawing in defenders as they want to make sure you can't break clean through. Youngs is also capable of this with some of his sniping runs near the ruck.

Really didn't rate Joseph, he seemed far too keen on taking the ball into contact for someone who isn't very powerful. Surely he should be looking for offloads or running good lines rather than trying to be Tuilagi-light?

 

[McTallshort]

you can go in to the detail too much I think...

This was very much a second string, very young England team who won 2 tests in Argentina playing some great rugby, a lot has been made of the Argentinian team being under strength but so was the England team with 3rd choices in lots of areas.

Really really impressed with the rugby they tried to play, a bit frantic and ill disciplined at times but thats to be expected. Yes they would not have won so easily against better teams etc etc but so what? Great display all round was even impressed with Marler.....

Big thanks to the BBC for covering the games and a big thanks to Andy Robinson for his very informative commentary in the first test. Think Eddie Butler has a picture of "Big Billy" on his bedroom ceiling.

 

[Peat]

The 'so what' is that these games are not an end in themselves, but a means to an end. If this tour does not provide players fit for Six Nations and World Cup duty, then it is in my eyes a failure. Yes, they've all done extremely well in terms of the task set by this tour, but the real question is whether they're genuine international players.

I think there's a good swathe of really top measure internationals amongst the less tested players but... well, lets not get carried away.

And the point on Wood/Brown stands - glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that. As said, between Robshaw/Croft and Foden/Tait/Daly, both men really could not afford slip ups. I don't think either exactly slipped up, but they're in a position where standing still is going backwards.

edit: And Brown is so greedy!

 

[McTallshort]

Only time will tell then....

 

[Big Ewis]

a lot has been made of the Argentinian team being under strength but so was the England team with 3rd choices in lots of areas.

yes, but this is England. A 4th string team would've sufficed. England has gazillions and trillions of players, Argentina, not so much for Rugby. I don't care "what" stringers it was for England and what stringers it was for Arg., the level was ridiculously low for Argentina.
They did have 21 players missing, and England did have the likes of Ben Morgan or Marler who are regularly capped int'l players.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah Yeah we can still beat France! :bleh!:

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah Yeah we can still beat France! :bleh!:

****uh, pleaaaase !!

 

[Crapspray]

They did have 21 players missing, and England did have the likes of Ben Morgan or Marler who are regularly capped int'l players.

Ten of the Argentinians players were in the side that beat France last year, Seven of whom were the Argentinian squad in the Rugby Championship. The Argentinian squad had 330 caps at the start of the tour to England's 218. Morgan and Marler had 10 caps a piece; experienced for this England side, but hardly by international standards.

----

The tour for me:

Players who stepped up: Twelvetrees, Burns, Wade, Yarde, Joseph, Eastmond, Morgan, Kvesic, Attwood, Webber, Wilson, Corbisiero, and Marler.

Players who stood still: Wood, Brown, Dickson, Wigglesworth, Paice, Lawes, Foden, May, Thomas, and Vunipola.

Players who went backwards: Stettle, Johnson, and Doran-Jones.

Hopefully the rookies and debutantes of the top list will be slowly fed into the EPS come autumn, with all of them in by the end of the Six Nations next year. Priorities being Burns, Wade, Kvesic, Yarde, and Attwood. Replacing Farrell (bench), Ashton, Johnson, Stettle, and Clark (picked as flanker/lock) respectively in the autumn.

The quality of the opposition wasn't great, and a little flattering to the scoreline, but the aim was to see raw talent at an international level. We saw that, and if managed right, come 2015, the likes of Wade will be experienced and dangerous; filling in areas of weakness in the current squad. Just what we want.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I completely agree, this has been a very successful tour.

Players I'd like to see in/out of the EPS based on this tour:

Yarde --> Strettle
Eastmond --> Goode
Kvesic --> Johnson
Attwood --> Clarke
Webber --> Hartley
Vunipola --> Waldrom
Wade --> Ashton


My not necessarily realistic favoured 23 come the autumn.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole/Wilson
4. Parling/Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw/Croft
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Webber
17. Vunipola
18. Cole/Wilson
19. Parling/Lanuchbury
20. Binny
21. Simpson
22. Farrell
23. Eastmond

 

[Peat]

Swap out Vunipola Minor for Robshaw/Croft, Farrell for Flood, and possibly Simpson for someone else, and I'm a happy camper as well.

 

[Big Ewis]

Ten of the Argentinians players were in the side that beat France last year, Seven of whom were the Argentinian squad in the Rugby Championship. The Argentinian squad had 330 caps at the start of the tour to England's 218. Morgan and Marler had 10 caps a piece; experienced for this England side, but hardly by international standards.

I knew this was coming, but it doesn't mean anything after what I've seen. I dunno exactly how bad France played that first test, dunno exactly who played on either side. I know we blew them out in the second but that Argie team was better than this right here, no question. This was just ridiculous, and everybody knows it. You've seen the kind of defense they played, and the scrum. These two things alone are downright laughable, literally. Attack wasn't miserable in the second test though, at times.

 

[Aristodemus]

I agree it has been a great tour, although I would change a few things with that team you named rats. Launchbury and Parling have to be the locks for me, Cole isn't really under threat from Wilson and I wouldn't have Simpson on the bench. Could we actually have a successful AI?

 

[Tony Manx]

.................wobbled like a fat girl getting sodomised.......

Think I just twiched there......................

 

[Tony Manx]

I completely agree, this has been a very successful tour.

Players I'd like to see in/out of the EPS based on this tour:

Yarde --> Strettle
Eastmond --> Goode
Kvesic --> Johnson
Attwood --> Clarke
Webber --> Hartley
Vunipola --> Waldrom
Wade --> Ashton


My not necessarily realistic favoured 23 come the autumn.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole/Wilson
4. Parling/Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw/Croft
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Webber
17. Vunipola
18. Cole/Wilson
19. Parling/Lanuchbury
20. Binny
21. Simpson
22. Farrell
23. Eastmond

Can see where you are going but who is going to organise the backs because cannot see a Catt/ Greenwood/Barritt type player amongst your selection to do it....to be honest, I am not that huge a fan of Manu (who is one dimensional and been found out).....rather than your centres, and to accomodate 36, I would rather put Barritt in there as the organiser/bruiser with an offload although we should not get too carried away with 36 who just happened to have one good game in Argentina but did nothing for most of the season that I saw!?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think if you give 36 the authority to do it, he can organise, and Eastmond is a bossy little **** (I mean that in a good way) and after another season I would back him to develope the requisite defensive understanding too.

@Aristo...

I think we've seen the benefits of a balanced selection here and Launchbury and Parling are too similar. Although they differ in styles, I don't think you lose anything overall by taking Attwood over Parling as they are both very good lineout callers and have good, effective workrates. Attwood has the benefit of being ****ing enormous, which is something that really helps in the scrum and tight.

Davey Wilson is not as good as Cole at the breakdown and Dan has a much better engine, but Wilson is a significantly better scrummager and ball carrier.
They should at least be rotated. I am a very big fan of both of them, and in any case they are both leagues ahead of anyone else.

 

[Peat]

Think I just twiched there......................

Good memories?

That said, I must take exception with your views on the centres. Tuilagi is not one-dimensional, the end of his season for Leicester and the Lions have shown superb hands. If England can't get those performances out of him, then the blame does not lie with Tuilagi. He has the capacity to distribute and create.

As for organisation - lets give it a go and see what happens. I'm tired of watching Barritt clog up midfield like a slightly less effective version of Joe Worsley. Twelvetrees hasn't been immense, but he offers more. Eastmond looked very exciting. I'd have Anthony Allen ahead of him too. If Barritt could bruise effectively at international level, I'd be ok with him. But he can't. Military medium at the very best. Any side serious about winning the World Cup should never look at the likes of Barritt as more than a stop-gap.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd say there is potentially quite a lot to be gained from having him in the EPS if he can pass on some of his defensive nous to either 36 or Eastmond though.

 

[Jaguares]

Ten of the Argentinians players were in the side that beat France last year, Seven of whom were the Argentinian squad in the Rugby Championship. The Argentinian squad had 330 caps at the start of the tour to England's 218. Morgan and Marler had 10 caps a piece; experienced for this England side, but hardly by international standards.

Yeah, but remember that only Felipe Contepomi has over 80 caps, the other Argie players have little experience. Last year Pumas won the first Test against France but lost catastrophically in the second test and also French team was a team with many rookies and inexperienced.
This isn't to detract from the excellent work did England on this tour, I think England has very good new players.


Regards

 

[Superalexmarket]

Ok enough, it is time for a deep restructuring of the Argentinian Rugby.
We can not have 4 or 5 teams to meet different commitments, we are not New Zealand, South Africa or England to afford that. We must have a solid base of players and play with them all year long, rotating only a few of them, and having one development team (Pampas XV would be a good option) and Jaguars for smaller tournaments.
And if this brings problems with European clubs, just go to hell with them! If we don't do something right now, we will end as Scotland, unfortunately.
Ahh... and Phelan, thanks for everything ... and go home. Ok?

 

[Jaguares]

Ok enough, it is time for a deep restructuring of the Argentinian Rugby.
We can not have 4 or 5 teams to meet different commitments, we are not New Zealand, South Africa or England to afford that. We must have a solid base of players and play with them all year long, rotating only a few of them, and having one development team (Pampas XV would be a good option) and Jaguars for smaller tournaments.
And if this brings problems with European clubs, just go to hell with them! If we don't do something right now, we will end as Scotland, unfortunately.
Ahh... and Phelan, thanks for everything ... and go home. Ok?

Well, I think that there isn't much difference between Argentina and Scotland. Remember that in the RWC 2011, Pumas almost lost to Scotland. They won by a player individual play. And last year, Argentina couldn't beat Springboks, while Scotland with many rookies had a great game against South Africa the other day.

I think that Phelan should not resign, Argentina don't have much money to hire a foreign coach of the highest level, are very expensive. Argentina should aspire to develop their coaches for evolution Argentine rugby can be sustained over time. I would like Phelan given an opportunity to young players like: Santiago Cordero, Facundo Isa, Felipe Ezcurra and Patricio Fernandez.

Regards