Ireland v New Zealand (13/11)

[NZbloke]

I can't say I ever want to see Leinster lose nor do I know of any fans who do. We also regularly put weakened teams out against our biggest rivals purely for competition's sake.

Yeah, the weakened teams are going to learn a lot from playing against the stronger teams... it's the old story whether in individual or team sport, the only way to improve is to play against someone that's better than you.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

you really struggle to get what most of us are saying dont you...we'd all rather win, first and foremost, but mostly also want to to have meant something, or to have been a good competition too

as i said before, if the result is ALL that matter you might as well just check the results

 

[Umaga's Witness]

We definitely move in different circles... it's beyond belief why anyone would want to support the other side against their own national team.

the joke is on you - I've never said Foster is a ' very good ' or ' a great coach ' ...he's done stuff all to counter the rushing defense for example.
Obviously Foster wasn't the best coach the NZRU could've selected anyway... what I'm saying is in ' very tight matches ' if we had a better coach that has the insight to select the right players, get the tactics right, read play from the stand knowing when to change a player, whether they're playing poorly etc, that ability makes all the difference in giving us a better chance of winning those tight ones as said, it's just common sense stuff.

I never said they supported the other team (to win) as such, i said people are both happy and sad when we lose, or just happy If they didn't actually watch it.

I know you don't rate foster, you make that abundantly clear. The joke, made for your benefit, wouldn't have made sense if you thought foster was a very good coach. The point was that if it's desirable to lose sometimes, then your view that fosters coaching makes us more likely to lose actually means he is a good coach. I thought you'd find that funny. Also thought the joke was obvious. Clearly I was wrong.

 

[NZbloke]

you really struggle to get what most of us are saying dont you...we'd all rather win, first and foremost, but mostly also want to to have meant something, or to have been a good competition too

as i said before, if the result is ALL that matter you might as well just check the results

You're just not getting what I mean - also the fact is when any stronger team plays against a weaker ones of course they're going to lose by pretty big margins... but the only way a weaker is going to improve is by consistently playing against better teams.

Where did I say it's only about the win ? as said it's about enjoying the game too, it's also vital the players enjoy it out on the field, otherwise they wouldn't perform as well.

I never said they supported the other team (to win) as such, i said people are both happy and sad when we lose, or just happy If they didn't actually watch it.

I know you don't rate foster, you make that abundantly clear. The joke, made for your benefit, wouldn't have made sense if you thought foster was a very good coach. The point was that if it's desirable to lose sometimes, then your view that fosters coaching makes us more likely to lose actually means he is a good coach. I thought you'd find that funny. Also thought the joke was obvious. Clearly I was wrong.

Mate, that joke was open to interpretation like a lot of refereeing decisions

 

[NZbloke]

Thought it was a bloody ridiculous call to send Aaron Smith over - he only played one game for Manawatu & hasn't played for over a month, so won't be match fit... he's just arrived in the UK, so looks like he'll only be available for the last test against France.
Just one player doesn't make a big difference to any team, the game is governed by the forwards... the team that gets on top up front controls the game, a good example of that was in the last RWC semi ABs v England & also the Final, Boks v England.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

…I mean we need half back cover, if either tj or Christie pulled up in training this week we'd be screwed…and smith is arguably the best halfback in the world

It may be a step from fitness in general to match fitness but there is no doubt he will have kept up his general fitness, he's famous for being one of the hardest trainers out there, doing 2-3 hours more training the team schedule, and he hasn't been away due to injury or anything

They took came who hadn't played in months and has had a serious injury

 

[NZbloke]

…I mean we need half back cover, if either tj or Christie pulled up in training this week we'd be screwed…and smith is arguably the best halfback in the world

It may be a step from fitness in general to match fitness but there is no doubt he will have kept up his general fitness, he's famous for being one of the hardest trainers out there, doing 2-3 hours more training the team schedule, and he hasn't been away due to injury or anything

They took came who hadn't played in months and has had a serious injury

Having 2 halfbacks with only two games to go should be fine - Smith certainly has a faster pass than our other two 9's, but there's more to just having a good pass as a halfback.

It's a big step up from fitness training to match fitness... the only player that I have seen that could slot back into an AB starting team after been out for a few months & perform well straightaway was Richie McCaw, he had a huge engine on him & his mental toughness was superb.

Reckon they shouldn't have taken Cane on tour... should've just let him settle into training with the Chiefs for the Super Comp later on.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Having 2 halfbacks with only two games to go should be fine - Smith certainly has a faster pass than our other two 9's, but there's more to just having a good pass as a halfback.

It's a big step up from fitness training to match fitness... the only player that I have seen that could slot back into an AB starting team after been out for a few months & perform well straightaway was Richie McCaw, he had a huge engine on him & his mental toughness was superb.

Reckon they shouldn't have taken Cane on tour... should've just let him settle into training with the Chiefs for the Super Comp later on.

you've done this a couple of times on this thread...who said smith only has a faster pass?

he's also on the leadership group and would add over 100 caps of experience if he was to play....in saying that i dont think anyone has suggested he drops straight into start this week, as i mentioned before im sure it is mainly to cover is we have an injury this week during training or have one during this weekend game

seems common sense to take him over now so he can acclimatise a little and not risk having to fly someone over next week and they actually play after only landing a couple of days before

 

[NZbloke]

you've done this a couple of times on this thread...who said smith only has a faster pass?

he's also on the leadership group and would add over 100 caps of experience if he was to play....in saying that i dont think anyone has suggested he drops straight into start this week, as i mentioned before im sure it is mainly to cover is we have an injury this week during training or have one during this weekend game

seems common sense to take him over now so he can acclimatise a little and not risk having to fly someone over next week and they actually play after only landing a couple of days before

Other than passing if you've watched all our halfbacks properly you realize Smith is no better than them in all the other areas of the game... in fact they have strengths he doesn't, Perenara can power through tackles, scores a fair few tries close to the line & Weber is very quick, Perenara use to be very fast, but seems to have lost that pace a bit.

With Smith been in the team so long he's obviously going to be part of the leadership group... instead of sending Smith over as cover they could've easily sent another halfback from NZ that was actually match fit, even selected a player that's playing in the UK, there were other options... they had no problem selecting a 20 year lock to tour.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

....this is quite possibly the first time i have heard someone purport that smith is anything short of a light year ahead of the other halfbacks in every facet...at least for several years...so im not sure how to respond

surely you see a difference between having to fly someone in as injury cover, someone that MAY have to slot into a team with little to no training...and planning a tour where you can manage blooding someone new and green...there is a huge difference between picking a bolter that then spends a few weeks with the team before playing...and jetting one in to potentially play fresh of the plane

 

[big ginger 8]

Per Thornley:

Ireland (possible): Keenan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Lowe; Sexton, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Doris, van der Flier, Conan. Replacements: Sheehan or Herring, Healy or Kilcoyne, Bealham or Healy, Beirne, O'Mahony, Murray, Carbery, Earls.

Kinsella's team doesn't have the bench but is the same starting team as last weekend with the only possible change being Henderson in for Ryan instead of Beirne.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

@the irish
I know no one really rates Murray these days, but do you guys think he should be playing for his box kicking given they might see NZ having a weakness under the high balls? Or would you rather just focus on your running game? Or is it really just both and Gibson park is more balanced, on current form anyway?

@the nzers
The team will mostly pick itself I guess, but interesting to see who plays ten, and who is the loose forward reserve.
Mounga played himself out of a starting spot against Italy I think, prior to that he would probably have been first choice.
And cane could be put on the bench, but that gives an odd mix with three sevens and only one eight (although gatland oddly thought cane was an eight). Still reckon he might though.

Tupaea might have earned a start if he had managed to do well against the Italian rush defence. He was making yards in wider channels but not in midfield against the rush, and his comms on attack weren't that great either. Credit to Italy's defence though. He could be in the reserves, though they like to move rieko from wing to centre at the end of the game and Reece has played a good impact role. Mckenzie can too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

JGP is (worryingly) our most solid option. He gets loads of stick but in terms of decision making and adequate service he's light-years ahead of the competition right now.

Murray shouldn't be in the squad imo. Craig Casey, Luke McGrath, Caolan Blade would all be better shouts for developing the squad. All either haven't got adequate experience or have developed their game since they were last given a chance. Murray knows international rugby very well and isn't performing. Would use the same argument with Carbery, these guys don't need experience or minutes, they need form and confidence, club rugby is the place to build that.

 

[munstermuffin]

Per Thornley:

Ireland (possible): Keenan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Lowe; Sexton, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Doris, van der Flier, Conan. Replacements: Sheehan or Herring, Healy or Kilcoyne, Bealham or Healy, Beirne, O'Mahony, Murray, Carbery, Earls.

Kinsella's team doesn't have the bench but is the same starting team as last weekend with the only possible change being Henderson in for Ryan instead of Beirne.

Heard elsewhere it's Henderson in for James Ryan and Murray possibly in for JGP. Not sure if it is reliable as my usual sources.

 

[munstermuffin]

JGP is (worryingly) our most solid option. He gets loads of stick but in terms of decision making and adequate service he's light-years ahead of the competition right now.

Murray shouldn't be in the squad imo. Craig Casey, Luke McGrath, Caolan Blade would all be better shouts for developing the squad. All either haven't got adequate experience or have developed their game since they were last given a chance. Murray knows international rugby very well and isn't performing. Would use the same argument with Carbery, these guys don't need experience or minutes, they need form and confidence, club rugby is the place to build that.

On your argument about Murray and Carbery. Not saying I agree or disagree but the new structure and lack of club rugby when AI's are on means we will get alot more of these scenarios. It good in 1 sense as we see academy guys in AIL that bit more but for older lads it isn't as good.

 

[big ginger 8]

@the irish
I know no one really rates Murray these days, but do you guys think he should be playing for his box kicking given they might see NZ having a weakness under the high balls? Or would you rather just focus on your running game? Or is it really just both and Gibson park is more balanced, on current form anyway?

I've referred to JGP as the player nobody wants and I think that's accurate. Nobody is clamouring for him but 8 think he's the current best option for the way we want to play. He's comfortable playing at tempo and can make good decisions off the cuff (see his grubber for Conway's first last week). So I think he should be the starter at the moment. Murray certainly hasn't shown he's comfortable at a quick tempo in recent years. Still the ideal is that one of Doak or Casey will have forces JGP out of the starter's jersey by 2023.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Strong team

 

[Jakedood]

Strong team

View attachment 12502

Few questions...

1. I thought Sam Cane was a banker, whos this new openside and what is he like? Same for blindside
2. How has the Rieko at 13 effort been progressing?
3. Is McKenzie usually just involved in tier 2 games now?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Few questions...

1. I thought Sam Cane was a banker, whos this new openside and what is he like? Same for blindside
2. How has the Rieko at 13 effort been progressing?
3. Is McKenzie usually just involved in tier 2 games now?

Just my impressions of course

1. Canes has only just come back from long term injury, paps was the form open side in surgery rugby, Blackadder has been fighting it out with akira for the 6 jersey, I think this just comes down to akira might need a break?

2. I think he is a better 11 but our midfield has been very limp so they are trying to give it some firepower

3. No, but Jordie is the clear fav at 15 so there just isn't the room for dmac

 

[Derpus]

Strong team

View attachment 12502

Its kinda mad TJ flaps is still starting for you blokes. He's pretty damn average these days.