• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Ireland ponder Poite complaint

To be honest I think they have a case this time round.

Ireland havent had a scrum in a long time so we finally pick a scrummaging tighthead but Poite allows their loosehead to slip the bind, bore in and drive up. I have no problem if our scrum was dominated in the same way that Scotlands was against France (and Irelands was over the past year) but this was not the case. This was blatantly illegal scrummaging ignored by the referee. When the Italians failed to get a shove on, they could collapse it with impunity, and get the reset, if it collapsed on the Irish looshead side (as the scrum crabs across), instant penalty? Nahhh not right.

Either way, there isnt going to be some formal appeal of the refereeing but its interesting to hear Kidney (who usually says nothing) mention it post match.

None of this really had too much of an impact on the game as Italy failed to capitalised but Poite will referee Leinster vs Leicester in two months so its a worry and it needs to be addressed. Those Leinster props locked the scrum against both Racing and Clermont (a certain Mr Domingo), they havent become bad overnight.

swings and roundabouts mate.

Argentina were all over you guys in November until crap referreing ruined their tight-based gameplan and allowed Ireland to walk all over the game with their superior backs.

And I fail to accept that any front row containing Cian Healy is worthy of any penalties ever in the scrum.
 
I think GG is right and well Cian Healey is as bad as Buckley and Hayes for conceding penalties at scrum time and been poor disciplined. Facts are we aren't even average compared to the standard of scrummaging at this level.
We don't have a decent frontrow that are a good balance ie scrum and be effective in the loose.
But if Ireland use their brains they can beat France. Our lineout can be best around on it's day and our backs can do damage if given right plays.
 
swings and roundabouts mate.
I dont get you. We should ignore the referees performance because Argentina didnt get a penalty try against Ireland in November.

We didnt lose so its not sour grapes. Surely now is the perfect time to raise it?
 
.... Poite allows their (Italy's) loosehead to slip the bind, bore in and drive up........ This was blatantly illegal scrummaging ignored by the referee. When the Italians failed to get a shove on, they could collapse it with impunity, and get the reset, if it collapsed on the Irish looshead side (as the scrum crabs across), instant penalty?

Now where have I heard this before?

We had exactly the same problem at San Siro with referee Dickinson in 2009. Dickinson hasn't been appointed to a major internatonal (6N or 3N) since.

Martin Castrogiovanni scrummages illegally. He did so for Calvisano, and he does so for Leicester and Italy, and no elite referee seems able to be able to pick him up for it.
 
Last edited:
It was actually Perugini at the loosehead this time round, but if it makes any difference to you, Roman Poite wrote a letter to the Italian Rugby Federation apologising for how he refereed Castrogiavani this time last year. This of course didnt compromise him or lead him to heavily penalise Cian Healy.
 
It was actually Perugini at the loosehead this time round, but if it makes any difference to you, Roman Poite wrote a letter to the Italian Rugby Federation apologising for how he refereed Castrogiavani this time last year. This of course didnt compromise him or lead him to heavily penalise Cian Healy.

Perugini was at LHP in the San Siro match as well (subbed in the second half by Royet (?). It was on their TH side that most (but not all) of the problems were.

Hopefully the message will get through to referees world-wide that arm and short binds should be penalised immediately, with no warnings and no allowance for materiality. Enforcing long binds by props onto the bodies of their opponents will cut out 95% of the illegal stuff.
 
I dont get you. We should ignore the referees performance because Argentina didnt get a penalty try against Ireland in November.

We didnt lose so its not sour grapes. Surely now is the perfect time to raise it?

Well, put it this way. In the beginning of the match, Ireland were under huge pressure at scrumtime and in the forwards generally. Argentina deserved a penalty try or at the very least an Irish prop in the bin. As it was, Ireland got the penalty, were able to clear their lines and Argentina had nothing to show for their considerable period of pressure. Had they scored and/ or had a man up, plus the advantage they deserved from having a superior scrum, the match could have turned out differently. Now, in the end Ireland proved a better side in every other aspect of the game, but Argentina's one advantage was removed by poor referreeing, which ruined any chance of a close match.

Now, Ireland are complaining about referreeing of the scrum. So if we assume the refereeing was at fault both times, they've benefitted once and lost out once. But there's so many other times when some of the many grey areas in the lawbook are controversially interpreted, we should accept that it's a part of the game.

I personally think Ireland haven't got a case with this particular game against Italy. I only saw the 1st half hour, but even in those scrums Ireland were under pressure. Were it the other way round, and Italy were under pressure, I'd have questions to ask, but surely Ireland knew they would give ground in the scrum - they were always going to trundle backwards whether Italy scrummaged illegally or not.

In Cian Healy, you have a good prop in the loose, but one who consistently goes backwards in international scrums. Mike Ross is a good tighthead, but when he was in the Prem, he was part of a Quins front row that was never dominant in the same way that, for example, Leicester were. His selection certainly improves the Irish scrum, but it doesn't suddenly haul it up to international standard. You're still weak in this area, and I'd expect everyone Ireland play in the 6N to dominate here.

If Ireland actually had a point then I'd be more sympathetic. But them blaming the referee for losing out at scrums is like Scots blaming the ref because they never score any tries (Paris excepted). It doesn't wash.

What I suspect this is all about is Kidney throwing a diversion from a poor Irish performance, a la Gatland.
 
Well, put it this way. In the beginning of the match, Ireland were under huge pressure at scrumtime and in the forwards generally. Argentina deserved a penalty try or at the very least an Irish prop in the bin. As it was, Ireland got the penalty, were able to clear their lines and Argentina had nothing to show for their considerable period of pressure. Had they scored and/ or had a man up, plus the advantage they deserved from having a superior scrum, the match could have turned out differently. Now, in the end Ireland proved a better side in every other aspect of the game, but Argentina's one advantage was removed by poor referreeing, which ruined any chance of a close match.
I remember that, Ireland collapsed 4 or 5 scrums right on their try line, everyone was amazed that there wasn't a PT/binning for Buckley
 
Poite is an awful ref but Ireland shouldn't try to get him in trouble as our scrum was poorly officiated but it was weaker than Italy's (even if Italy were infringing at the scrum). I think Ireland should make the IRB aware of how they feel about the scrum on Saturday and if that means complaining about Poite then so be it as Argentina were foolish not to complain about Joubert.
 
The difference between this game and the Ireland V Argentina game is that this game was played after the IRB said they were going to crackdown on the scrum infringements ... apparently all of the six nations teams were supportive of this

http://www.espnscrum.com/sixnations2011/rugby/story/133099.html

... I'm not pro-Ireland, anti -Argentina, or anti-Italy, but it doesn't look like much has changed to me
 
Ha we'll have last laugh when Tony "Mushy" Buckley returns and is a rock in our scrum, steadies the ship and we win the World Cup.
After all Gert Smal still believes he can be one of best props in the world. :D
 
I'm not a big fan of criticising the ref. Yep, he managed the scrums badly and the Italians did appear to be boring in. Sin e. We should have done something about it though. No point sitting there complaining about it.

It's an issue, but it wasn't a deciding factor in the match. All experiance for the young Cian Healy.
 
People criticise the ref, but id also look to blame or ask the question why do the officials on the sideline don't help the man in the middle more. Maybe that would be of some help or the fact that referees are re-educated by the IRB on the scrum.
 
I'm not a big fan of criticising the ref. Yep, he managed the scrums badly and the Italians did appear to be boring in. Sin e. We should have done something about it though. No point sitting there complaining about it.

It's an issue, but it wasn't a deciding factor in the match. All experiance for the young Cian Healy.

Sure, i'm a fan of adapting your game to the way that the ref is reffing it too ... but if the IRB release a statement to specifically target an area of the game, you'd expect that officials would be more vigilant on the pulling down of the scrums and the not straight scrum feeds - all i'm saying is, like Ireland and Italy who will be analysing the match to improve their game, hopefully the officials and their bosses are doing the same thing, and appropriate measures are taken.
 
we should accept that it's a part of the game.
I only saw the 1st half hour, but even in those scrums Ireland were under pressure.
Because of illegal scrummaging. You dont seem to be getting what I'm saying. It was similar when "The Beast" scrummaged illegally against Vicery and take the game away from the Lions. That kinda interpretation is just part of the game? We should just accept it? I dont agree, and I seriously doubt you agreed back then.

Again, its nothing really to do with Italy, or Ireland as we didnt lose the game from this. This is about Poite, the IRB and another incompetent performance from a ref at the highest level of the game.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...lings-ruined-game-as-a-spectacle-2528106.html

Were it the other way round, and Italy were under pressure, I'd have questions to ask, but surely Ireland knew they would give ground in the scrum - they were always going to trundle backwards whether Italy scrummaged illegally or not.
Ahhh right. So we'll make up our mind about these things before the match and rule on infringments based on those pre-match assumptions. If Ireland go backwards its because we are weak, if we go forwards its because we are cheating. Eitherway, penalty Italy. This is pretty much what Poite did.

As for the argentina match, to say that Argentina would have been close if a try was given is pure fantasy. They were absolutely woeful, and while Ireland werent too great we still scored tries for fun in the end.
 
More like "If Ireland go forwards, 'We Iz da Aw3some!', If Ireland go backwards, we were cheated".
 
Not at all like England then?
Not aware of any Englishmen on this board pretending England are the best side in the world. Or for that matter, anyone mentioning England up until now.

Great bit of original topic deflection that is though, bravo.
 
Jeeeeez, can't anyone complain in peace these days.

Firstly, I've looked everywhere and nowhere does anyone use the word 'complaint' besides the likes of Planet Rugby and other trouble-makers. From what I can see, all anyway said was along the lines of "Ok, so what exactly do you want us to do with the scrum? How's it been reffed. Please answer in 1000 words or less.". Not a complaint but an enquiry. Not a trial but one of Irelands lovely tribunals that cost a **** load of money and don't tell you anything you don't know already.

Couple of points. Healy got eaten alive, and CastroG could have done it easily even if he did it legally so why bother with the illegal binding? How the ref missed all the antics on Ross' side of the scrum, be it Leamy breaking his bind or perugini doing every sort of boldness he could think of.

Someone said it earlier, why do the linesmen do nothing. NOTHING. They have eyes and show know about reffing too. Help. Helpn the ref. It's not that hard. Just point your eyes in the direction of the scrum. Easy.

Last point. Cop-on Ireland, the IRFU aren't gonna turn off the loud music so joint the party. Learn how to cheat at the scrum.
 
Top