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Ireland ponder Poite complaint

More like "If Ireland go forwards, 'We Iz da Aw3some!', If Ireland go backwards, we were cheated".
Seriously dude do you actually want to discuss rugby on this forom, or do you just prefer to stick your fingers in your ear and whinge at the foreigners?

If you accept that props should bind up, scrum straight, stay down and keep the scrum up then you have to take issue with how Italy scrummaged on Saturday. Regardless of past performances, regardless of who was on the receiving end, this should be addressed.
 
I'll accept that about the same time that any Irish player I ever sees accepts that gobbing off at the Ref isn't acceptable.

Bending the rules is part of the game. The same reason Beast boars in, the same reason that McCaw always handles on the floor, the same way michelak perenially gets away with [strike]forward[/strike] 'flat' passes, the same way O'Connell constantly gobs off at refs/punches players etc. To win games once upon a time coaches understood you have to deal with and over-come these parts of the game. Now all they do is whinge about it (or in Gatlands case, pre-emptively whinge about it).

I'm no expert in the dark arts, but this is a nice article which sums up scrummaging in the modern game:

http://www.sportingo.com/rugby-union/a13085_points-art-scrummaging-from-front-row-seat

Penalties for scrummaging infringements have become something of a joke as front row forwards are buckling under one of the most insane systems of punishment know to man.

Ask any prop or hooker, the laws of rugby pertaining to collapsing scrums have become a lottery based on the whims of a referee who more often than not has never played a single game at front row in his life.

Referees might be ex-players but I'm yet to meet or hear of a front rower turned referee, and quite simply the current lot haven't a clue about what really goes on in a scrum.

Don't try convince me they do. I've been there and got that T-shirt, first-hand.

It's really more frustrating than just pure laughs and as a hooker who has 17 years experience of this carry-on, I believe the punishment lottery has only worsened thanks to the demands of entertainment and spectatorship.

Although I understand constant scrum resets aren't very enjoyable to watch, I think front-rowers should claim back their rightful control of this aspect of rugby and here are a few easy ways to flummox even the greatest referee and turn the current chaos, in terms of scrums, into an advantage for the team.

Controlling the illusions the referee might develop can seriously affect the outcome of the game and although it's not a crowd pleasing element of modern rugby, it's nonetheless a valid tool for any top side.

Strategic planning, manipulating and managing of scrum penalties
: Play up various strategic situations and don't be afraid to give up early penalties but be guided by field position and time in a
carefully plotted strategy to ensure you're statistically ahead and have the referee betting to your next advantage when you need it most.

The Give:
No referee on this planet can spot a delicate pulse-like easing up designed to destabalise and drop the scrum. Touch-Pause-Engage and then down-she-goes.

Drop the blind-side:
This is a classic old ploy and exploits the fact that the referee can't be on both sides of the scrum at the same time. Simply drop the side that the referee is not guarding.

Intentionally collapse scrums:
Build up a negative record for the opposition and don't be afraid to drop scrums which appear to be already to your advantage, i.e drop your own attacking scrums to put the guillotine over the heads of your opposite numbers.

The handbag drop:
A punch or two from the second row has been known to help collapse scrums and is extremely difficult to spot.

The slack hooker drop:
Many referees have read a handbook that says it's impossible to collapse a scrum with arms above the head, shoulders above the hips. A hooker can however make a mockery of this by simply swinging his 'hind quarters' forward, dropping himself on the necks of his opponents and dropping a scrum undetectably every time.

Play up the crowd:
Get the penalty count up early and make sure the crowd gets the message the referee is persecuting the wrong team.

Captains questions:
Related to the above, a captain can add further frustration to the collapsing scrum conundrum by cleverly questioning the referee about the status of the scrum and by carefully communicating subversive messages throughout the scrum.

Mind the gap:
Stretch the gap between packs and get the opponents stretching to get to you. Drops every time.

Lever Brothers
: Engage at full height bending only at the waist forming a near perfect 90 degree angle, then bend your knees to control the height of the scrum, keep your hips and shoulders level, then return to maximum height – a guaranteed house of cards.

The early rounds of the Super 14 have shown how quizzical the collapsing law interpretations have become and it's time savvy teams began to counter this with some planning of their own.

I've little doubt the referee can be played to the benefit of the most 'devious' front row.

If the Irish front row are too naïve to know all this, shame on them.
 
It'd be nice if someone would point this out to the IRB or Cian Healy. Either way suits me.

O'Connell has hit two players. Cudmore had it coming. The Ospreys one was idiotic. But that's not constant. If you wanna give out, the gobbing off bit it more acceptable. O'Connell's a past-it grumpy old man with a crocked body.


McCaw on the ground and Freddie's passing is just the ref missing sneaky but intelligent play and not the ref's ignorance as we see in the scrum. The difference is important.
 
People criticise the ref, but id also look to blame or ask the question why do the officials on the sideline don't help the man in the middle more. Maybe that would be of some help or the fact that referees are re-educated by the IRB on the scrum.
Why can't the blindside TJ come in-field at scrum time?
 
I love way Bullitt calls other players thugs etc when Saints have their fair share too but well he see's no wrong when they "bend the rule".
And I just browsing through footage of when Munster played Saint I'm sure I've footage of Ashton mouthing off at the ref.
And correct me if I wrong wasn't Martin Johnson a great captain because he was always on a refs ear, motivated his team by doing actions like disrespecting the irish president, thrown a few punches when needed, been stubborn and even as a coach whinged about refs calls but hey England beat a mediocre Welsh team and now talk of winning a world cup and grand slam is on.
Do me a favour and speak sense. I'm not saying Munster are perfect because we even know we aren't but quit banging on thinking Saints or English are when they just as bad
 
I love way Bullitt calls other players thugs etc when Saints have their fair share too but well he see's no wrong when they "bend the rule".
And I just browsing through footage of when Munster played Saint I'm sure I've footage of Ashton mouthing off at the ref.
And correct me if I wrong wasn't Martin Johnson a great captain because he was always on a refs ear, motivated his team by doing actions like disrespecting the irish president, thrown a few punches when needed, been stubborn and even as a coach whinged about refs calls but hey England beat a mediocre Welsh team and now talk of winning a world cup and grand slam is on.
Do me a favour and speak sense. I'm not saying Munster are perfect because we even know we aren't but quit banging on thinking Saints or English are when they just as bad

When did I ever bring up any of that? Never, that's when. Stop your micro-ism of Irish rugby by mouthing off when it's not going your war way by deflecting the attention elsewhere with bullshit accusations. :)
 
but hey England beat a mediocre Welsh team and now talk of winning a world cup and grand slam is on.

Ay?
I've not either of those things,
I have, however, heard that Ireland are on for a grand slam because "they got their bad match out of the way early"


Also, POC wears Martin Johnson pyjamas
 
Did you not just mention Paul O'Connell, McCaw and Michalak ??????
And it nothing to do with Irish rugby. Win or Lose i don't mind because Munster my main concern not Ireland but every team does it so slate the mentioned players as you wish but they do it like every other team does but they get away with it because they can.
Every team tries it though

Olyy Ireland will win no grand slam that is a fact and will be happy to win 2 out of last 4 games
 
Thats a good article, an interesting read.

I'll accept that about the same time that any Irish player I ever sees accepts that gobbing off at the Ref isn't acceptable.
I agree with you there. O'Connell, Leamy and O'Gara need to shut the **** up. Fullstop. Dont see how its relevent to this topic though, and dont understand why you feel the need to negotiate. You either believe or you dont.

Again, an international quality ref should be able to spot when a prop is not scrummaging straight, is not binding straight, and is driving up and across his opposite number. Of course schneaky stuff goes on, but this was pretty obvious.
 
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I don't know how this has become such a long thread.

Surely we can all agree that the IRB need to sort the scrum out so Ireland can go back to getting their scrum eaten alive in a good honest clean way with proper binding and no boreing in or up.

Send the ref's back to scrum school and give the props baggy jerseys. The point of those jerseys was to make players harder to tackle but it's not exactly often you see Castrogiovanni bursting through the centre stepping Vincent Clerc and running in a try.
 
Poite is an awful ref but Ireland shouldn't try to get him in trouble as our scrum was poorly officiated but it was weaker than Italy's (even if Italy were infringing at the scrum). I think Ireland should make the IRB aware of how they feel about the scrum on Saturday and if that means complaining about Poite then so be it as Argentina were foolish not to complain about Joubert.

Sometimes silence is best as Argentina did nothing yet Joubert was dropped from the elite panel the following week.

Some really crap referee´s out there. I know rugby is difficult. Hell, I am a coach in a country ranked in the third tier but guys as messy as Joubert...
 
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