How many competitive 22 man squads could NZ have???

[dan the man]

Now I'm not being some Cocky NZ Rugby fan... (well kinda )

But how much talent is there at the moment in these young Kiwi players?!? normally after a World Cup it seems like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel! But this year is very different!

Starting with the 22 man squad to play Ireland:

1st XXII

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Andrew Hore
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Victor Vito
7. Richie McCaw (c)
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Dan Carter
11. Julian Savea
12. Sonny Bill Williams
13. Conrad Smith
14. Zac Guilford
15. Israel Dagg

16. Hika Elliot
17. Ben Franks
18. Ali Williams
19. Adam Thomson
20. Piri Weepu
21. Aaron Cruden
22. Ben Smith

2nd XXII

1. Wyatt Crockett
2. Dane Coles
3. Jeffery Toomaga-Allen
4. Tom Donnelly
5. Jason Eaton
6. Luke Braid
7. Matt Todd
8. Liam Messam
9. Andrew Ellis
10. Beauden Barret
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Tamati Ellison
14. Tim Nanai Williams
15. Andre Taylor

16. Jason Rutledge
17. Jamie MacIntosh
18. Luke Romano
19. Nasi Manu
20. TJ Peranara
21. Mike Delany
22. Robbie Robinson

3rd XXII

1. Charlie Faumuina
2. Cory Flynn
3. Ben Afeaki
4. Craig Clarke
5. Jarred Hoeata
6. Sam Cane
7. Daniel Braid
8. George Whitelock
9. Tawera Kerr-Barlow
10. Tom Taylor
11. Lelia Masaga
12. Tim Bateman
13. Robbie Fruean
14. Rene Ranger
15. Rudi Wulf

16. Tom McCartney
17. Ben Tameifuna
18. Jason Eaton
19. Peter Saili
20. Alby Mathewson
21. Gareth Anscombe
22. Lachie Munro

Ok, so the 3rd XXII isn't the greatest but the 2nd XXII is awesome, heaps of talant but not as much experience...

Also I've left out the currently injured players: Keven Mealamu, Anthony Boric, Jerome Kaino, Colin Slade, Richard Kahui, Cory Jane and Isaia Toeava. If this group were included then the 2nd XXII would look a lot stronger. Either way, i reckon that any of these teams would be competitive at International level.

The Future of NZ Rugby is looking great! Especially considering that a few of our Superstars probably only have a season or two left...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I can do the same for South Africa

First 22:

1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Andries Bekker
6. Marcell Coetzee
7. Willem Alberts
8. Keegan Daniel
9. Francois Hougaard
10.Patrick Lambie
11.Lwazi Mvovo
12.Francois Steyn
13.Jaque Fourie
14.JP Pietersen
15.Jaco Taute

16.Adriaan Strauss
17.Coenie Oosthuizen
18.Juandre Kruger
19.Josh Strauss
20.Fourie du Preez
21.Jean de Villiers
22.Gio Aplon


2nd 22:

1. Gurtro Steenkamp
2. Schalk Brits
3. Brian Mujati
4. Bakkies Botha
5. Johann Muller
6. Heinrich Brussow
7. Juan Smith
8. Pierre Spies
9. Ruan Pienaar
10.Johan Goosen
11.Bjorn Basson
12.Doppies la Grange
13.Juan de Jongh
14.Louis Ludik
15.Riaan Viljoen

16.Chiliboy Ralepelle
17.Deon Carstens
18.Anton Bresler
19.Duane Vermeulen
20.Sarel Pretorius
21.Robert Ebersohn
22.Joe Pietersen


3rd 22:

1. CJ van der Linde
2. Tiaan Liebenberg
3. Patric Cilliers
4. Flip van der Merwe
5. Alistair Hargreaves
6. Jacques Botes
7. Jean Deysel
8. Joe van Niekerk
9. Charl McLeod
10.Elton Jantjies
11.Lionel Mapoe
12.Wynand Olivier
13.Paul Jordaan
14.Sibusiso Sithole
15.Brent Russell

16.Deon Fourie
17.Dean Greyling
18.Wilhelm Steenkamp
19.Ryan Kankowski
20.Piet van Zyl
21.Butch James
22.Hennie Daniller



Man, I didn't even use Jacques Potgieter, Steven Kitshoff, Peter Grant, Morne Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Deon Stegmann, Dewaldt Duvenhage, Dewald Potgieter, BJ Botha, Danie Rossouw and many, many others.


It's easy to do this for NZ, England, France and SA because of the massive depth and the local competition for talents to develop, unlike Australia, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

 

[Draggs]

01 Gethin Jenkins
02 Ken Owens
03 Adam Jones
04 Alun Wyn Jones
05 Ian Evans
06 Dan Lydiate
07 Sam Warburton
08 Toby Faletau
09 Mike Phillips
10 Rhys Priestland
11 George North
12 Jamie Roberts
13 Jonathan Davies
14 Alex Cuthbert
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Matthew Rees
17 Paul James
18 Luke Charteris
19 Ryan Jones
20 Lloyd Williams
21 James Hook
22 Scott Williams

01 Ryan Bevington
02 Richard Hibbard
03 Craig Mitchell
04 Bradley Davies
05 Lou Reed
06 Josh Turnbull
07 Justin Tipuric
08 Andy Powell
09 Rhys Webb
10 Dan Biggar
11 Aled Brew
12 Ashley Beck
13 Adam Hughes
14 Harry Robinson
15 Lee Byrne

16 Emyr Phillips
17 Rhodri Jones
18 Dominic Day
19 Lewis Evans
20 Dwayne Peel
21 Jason Tovey
22 Will Harries

Stretching it there... Let's go for three!

01 John Yapp
02 Scott Baldwin
03 Eifion Lewis-Roberts
04 Aaron Shingler
05 Damien Welch
06 Josh Turnbull
07 Daniel Thomas
08 Kieran Murphy
09 Gareth Davies
10 Stephen Jones
11 Tom James
12 Ashley Smith
13 Adam Warren
14 Morgan Stoddart
15 Liam Williams

16 ... Marc Jones?
17 Scott Andrews
18 Ian Gough
19 Rob McCusker
20 Tavis Knoyle
21 Matthew Morgan
22 Chris Czekaj

Yeah, not as great as the Kiwis or Saffas, but some decent young players coming through.

 

[Peat]

England

Current 22

15. Mike Brown 14. Chris Ashton 13. Manu Tuilagi 12. Brad Barrit 11. Ben Foden 10. Owen Farrell 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Joe Marler 2. Dylan Hartley 3. Dan Cole 4. Mouritz Botha 5. Geoff Parling 6. Tom Johnson 7. Chris Robshaw 8. Ben Morgan; 16. Lee Mears 17. PDJ 18. Tom Palmer 19. Phil Dowson 20. Lee Dickson 21. Toby Flood 22. Jonathan Joseph

Next best 22

15. Alex Goode 14. Topsy Ojo 13. George Lowe 12. Anthony Allen 11. JSD 10. Chargedown Charlie 9. Danny Care; 1. Corbs 2. Joe Gray 3. Rupert Harden 4. Matt Garvey 5. Courtney Lawes 6. Tom Croft 7. Jamie Gibson 8. Luke Narraway; 16. Chris Brooker 17. David Wilson 18. Dave Attwood 19. Carl Fearns 20. Richard Wigglesworth 21. Freddie Burns 22. Jonny May

Things are beginning to get iffy 22

15. Rob Miller 14. David Strettle 13. Henry Trinder 12. Billy Twelvetrees 11. Ugo Monye 10. George Ford 9. Haydn Thomas; 1. Nick Wood 2. David Paice 3. Duncan Bell 4. Ed Slater 5. Joe Launchbury 6. James Haskell 7. David Seymour 8. Thomas Waldrom; 16. Dean Whitehead 17. Matt Stevens 18. George Robson 19. Luke Wallace 20. Karl Dickson 21. Jordan Turner-Hall 22. Christian Wade

Ok, I'm beginning to take the **** a little, but just you wait 22

15. Olly Morgan 14. Charlie Sharples 13. Elliot Daly 12. That Fitzpatrick lad at Newcastle 11. James Short 10. Tom Heathcote 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Matt Mullan 2. Mike Haywood 3. Henry Thomas 4. Charlie Matthews 5. Graham Kitchener 6. Tom Wood 7. Matt Kvesic 8. Alex Gray; 16. Tom Youngs, 17. Kieran Brookes 18. Kearnan Myall 19. Sam Jones 20. Mickey Young 21. Ryan Mills 22. Anthony Watson

Not completely in order (I, err, kinda forgot Tom Wood existed) and still omitting a couple of recent England involvees. 15, 6, and 1 are our strong positions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

4-8 of the "bit iffy 22" arguably as good as out test XV :lol:

 

[Peat]

4-8 of the "bit iffy 22" arguably as good as out test XV :lol:

Yup! Which ones in you opinion?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd probably take Launchbury over Botha (if it were a complete nothing imaginary test - Launchbury is inexperienced but shows the raw talent/potential. Botha has more (club) experience, but isn't that great really) - I'd take Haskell at 6 over Johnson and Seymour at 7 over Robshaw - Morgan vs Waldrom is a hard choice, but I'd pick Morgan everytime as he's actually English
Would take Parling over Slater, but as a unit the iffys would take it for me.

Hard to say with others in the squad - I'd take Ford over Farrell in a hypothetical match, but probably not in the real world at the moment. Would have Wood over Marler as well (well, I would at the time before Wood was injured, Marlers improved tenfold since then, so not sure where they stand head to head at the moment).

 

[Feicarsinn]

Oh, this looks fun. I don't think there are 66 players in Ireland!

1st:

15) Rob Kearney
14) Tommy Bowe
13) Brian O'Driscoll
12) Fergus McFadden
11) Luke Fitzgerald
10) Johnny Sexton
9) Eoin Reddan
8) Jamie Heaslip
7) Sean O'Brien
6) Stephen Ferris
5) Paul O'Connell
4) Donnacha Ryan
3) Mike Ross
2) Rory Best
1) Cian Healy

16) Tom Court
17) Sean Cronin
17) Dan Tuohy
19) Peter O'Mahony
20) Conor Murray
21) Ronan O'Gara
22) Keith Earls

2nd:

15) Felix Jones
14) Craig Gilroy
13) Darren Cave
12) Gordon D'arcy
11) Andrew Trimble
10) Ian Madigan
9) Isaac Boss
8) Roger Wilson
7) Chris Henry
6) Kevin McLaughlin
5) Devin Toner
4) Donncha O'Callaghan
3) Jamie Hagan
2) Mike Sherry
1) Brett Wilkinson

16) Declan Fitzpatrick
17) Damien Varley
17) Mike McCarthy
19) Rhys Ruddock
20) Paul Marshall
21) Ian Keatley
22) Simon Zebo

Pathetic 3rds:

15) Dave Kearney
14) Fionn Carr
13) Eoin O'Malley
12) Paddy Wallace
11) Tiernan O'Halloran
10) JJ Hanrahan
9) Peter Stringer
8) James Coughlan
7) Shane Jennings
6) John Muldoon
5) Bob Casey
4) Damien Browne
3) Tadgh Furlong
2) Adrian Flavin
1) Paddy McAllister

16) Nigel Brady
17) John Andress
18) Iain Henderson
19) Dominic Ryan
20) Tomas O'Leary
21) Paddy Jackson
22) Nevin Spence

Actually, that third team isn't as bad as I would have feared. Our 1st team is an awful lot better than our seconds though.

EDIT: A few other things. I'm fond of our thirds for some reason. The back line is tiny, but I reckon they'd be great to watch. Nice combo of pace an good hands. I also love that second row combination. It's so abrasive. I've been happy with Furlong over the past few months, so I thought he deserves the nod over Loughney and Archer.

 

[Draggs]

Shingler as blindside ahead of Turnbull, James Down takes Shingler's second row position.
Gareth Delve over Andy Powell, Powell over Kieran Murphy. Gill over Yapp. I must say, we aren't looking too bad as far as back row and back three go. Every back row and outside back except Daniel Thomas has been capped (if we drop Murphy).
Granted, that could say more of our possible lack of depth. Looseheads we are pretty good; Jenkins, James, and soon Bevington, Jones, Gill. Tighthead, well, nothing. Maybe we will see more of Joe Rees. The Caiser is English qualified, so Olyy can include him now.

 

[Peat]

I'd probably take Launchbury over Botha (if it were a complete nothing imaginary test - Launchbury is inexperienced but shows the raw talent/potential. Botha has more (club) experience, but isn't that great really) - I'd take Haskell at 6 over Johnson and Seymour at 7 over Robshaw - Morgan vs Waldrom is a hard choice, but I'd pick Morgan everytime as he's actually English
Would take Parling over Slater, but as a unit the iffys would take it for me.

Hard to say with others in the squad - I'd take Ford over Farrell in a hypothetical match, but probably not in the real world at the moment. Would have Wood over Marler as well (well, I would at the time before Wood was injured, Marlers improved tenfold since then, so not sure where they stand head to head at the moment).

Agree with Launchbury, would replace Johnson with Wood but not so sure about Hask, you know my thoughts about Robshaw and the 7 shirt, and Thomas the Tank Engine's a fair way off Morgan. Ford vs Farrell is an interesting one, and much as I like Wood, I'd totally gamble on Marler. But yeah, about covers it for me.

Actually throw in our foreign based players, and we'd easily be able to do five. You'd wince at some parts of them, but hey, for fifth choice it'd be ok... particularly when you consider that would include both Armitages. Throw in players like Calum C**t Clark, Ryan Lamb, Geraghty, Tom Homer and his magic boot, James Gaskell, Tom Guest...

... holy ****, I never included Matthew Tait either. Easily good enough when fit.

Oh, this looks fun. I don't think there are 66 players in Ireland!

Import a few lads with grannies, isn't it what you normally do?

Just to be super pedantic, Trimble and Gilroy would be swapped in an Ulster team.

Anyway, after doing a fourth Irish one (which was super shocking in places), it occurred to me that Ryan Caldwell, Gavin Duffy and iHumph probably all deserve to be in that third team at least. And, uhm, you might be being mildly enthusiastic about some of those U20 players named who haven't played a single minute of senior competitive rugby to the best of my knowledge... although I might be saying that as there are Ulster players I'd put in their places

 

[Feicarsinn]

Agree with Launchbury, would replace Johnson with Wood but not so sure about Hask, you know my thoughts about Robshaw and the 7 shirt, and Thomas the Tank Engine's a fair way off Morgan. Ford vs Farrell is an interesting one, and much as I like Wood, I'd totally gamble on Marler. But yeah, about covers it for me.

Actually throw in our foreign based players, and we'd easily be able to do five. You'd wince at some parts of them, but hey, for fifth choice it'd be ok... particularly when you consider that would include both Armitages. Throw in players like Calum C**t Clark, Ryan Lamb, Geraghty, Tom Homer and his magic boot, James Gaskell, Tom Guest...

... holy ****, I never included Matthew Tait either. Easily good enough when fit.



Import a few lads with grannies, isn't it what you normally do?

Just to be super pedantic, Trimble and Gilroy would be swapped in an Ulster team.

Anyway, after doing a fourth Irish one (which was super shocking in places), it occurred to me that Ryan Caldwell, Gavin Duffy and iHumph probably all deserve to be in that third team at least. And, uhm, you might be being mildly enthusiastic about some of those U20 players named who haven't played a single minute of senior competitive rugby to the best of my knowledge... although I might be saying that as there are Ulster players I'd put in their places

Ah, I knew I forgot someone in the second row. Caldwell in for Browne who drops to the bench then. As to the other 20's lads in the side, I'd take anyone over Loughney and Archer. Furlong looks capable of locking a scrum against a semi decent opposition, which is more than can be said of the other two. He may be inexperienced, but at least he isn't as incompetent as the other two. Hanrahan > Jackson

 

[Peat]

Ah, I knew I forgot someone in the second row. Caldwell in for Browne who drops to the bench then. As to the other 20's lads in the side, I'd take anyone over Loughney and Archer. Furlong looks capable of locking a scrum against a semi decent opposition, which is more than can be said of the other two. He may be inexperienced, but at least he isn't as incompetent as the other two. Hanrahan > Jackson

Come back to me when Hanrahan's run the show in a P12 match or looked at home in a HC SF

Archer's crap, but Loughney's getting a rough deal from what I've seen. Furlong's got all the potential in the world, but Adam Macklin can point to having finished a job on Embra's front row amongst a few others. Don't think I'd take Henderson over Stevenson yet either, although I seem to recall you don't rate him for some reason. I'd probably drop Casey not Browne, on account of Casey basically being dead.

And srsly, drop Fionn Carr, move Kearney to the wing, and put Duffy in the side.

 

[dan the man]

Yeah, the Springboks arguably have better depth than any other team around right now... But Aussie's reserves are looking pretty weak at the moment...

GO WALES!!!

 

[TNT88]

1. Benn Robinson
2. Stephen Moore
3. Sekope Kepu
4. James Horwill
5. Nathan Sharpe
6. Scott Higgenbotham
7. David Pocock
8. Wyclif Palu
9. Will Genia
10. Kurtley Beale
11. Digby Ioane
12. Pat McCabe
13. Adam Ashley Cooper
14. Drew Mitchell
15. James O'Connor
16. Tatafu Palota Nau
17. Ben Alexander
18. Rob Simmons
19. Ben Mowen
20. Dave Dennis
21. Nick White
22. Quade Cooper

1. James Slipper
2. Nathan Charles
3. Dan Palmer
4. Dean Mumm
5. Sitaleki Timani
6. Beau Robinson
7. Michael Hooper
8. Ben McCalman
9. Brendan Mckibbon
10. Christian Lealeafano
11. Joe Tomane
12. Ben Tapuai
13. Rob Horne
14. Cooper Vuna
15. Jesse Mogg
16. Saia Faingaa
17. Pek Cowan
18. Ben Hand
19. Matt Hodgeson
20. Ben Lucas
21. Luke Morahan
22. Nick Cummins

1. Ben Daley
2. James Hanson
3. Kieran Longbottom
4. Hugh Pyle
5. Sam Wykes
6. Rocky Elsom
7. Liam Gill
8. Radike Samo
9. Nick Phipps
10. Bernard Foley
11. Dom Shipperly
12. Andrew Smith
13. Mitch Inman
14. Tom Kingston
15. Mark Gerrard
16. Ben Whittiker
17. Rodney Blake
18. Caderyn Neville
19. Richard Brown
20. Jake Schatz
21. Matt Toomua
22. Alfi Mafi

Decent 1 and 2 side. But our 3rd compared to the depth of other countries is obviously not there due to no national comp for more exp. for these guys.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

hahahaha nice work leaving Tom Carter out of the top 66 players. he really does suck

 

[TNT88]

LMAO , I had him in the third 22 and thought to myself "NO, no, we aren't that bad I better go back over the Brumbies and Rebels squads".

 

[Larksea]

I'm sure many nations can put out a few good teams but with NZ sitting 5 points clear in the IRB rankings (the next 5 are separated by 5 points - that's how big a gap it is) and having 4 very strong super rugby teams and the 5th being a sleeping giant (because of poor coaching and injuries not lack of player talent) I think the depth in NZ is close to the best it's ever been. Helped by the fact we now have a large number of very good first five's, halfbacks and openside flankers. In past years we had a great top 22 but if you built 2-3 more teams below it those key positions were weak. Now there is not much of a gap between those guys in the 1st 22 compared to the 3rd.

10's
Carter
Cruden
Barrett
Slade
Anscombe

7's
McCaw
Cane
Todd
L Braid
Latimer

9's
Smith
Perenara
Elis
Leonard
Barlow

This depth is insane, in the past go beyond the top 2 in each position and it was a bit iffy but looking at this list all these guys have the potential to be very good test players, or they are already. And it's really off the back of all the jnr world ***les that have been won over the last 5 years or so - that talent coming into super rugby.

I recon NZ could build a 2nd and 3rd 22 man squads that had the potential to be top 5 in the rankings.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

For Wales- (I'm just going to do XVs, I can't be bothered to add benches for each one. I'll just see how far I can go.)

First XV:
Gethin Jenkins, Ken Owens, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Danny Lydiate, Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau; Mike Phillips, Rhys Priestland, George North, Jamie Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Alex Cuthbert, Leigh Halfpenny

Second XV:
Paul James, Matthew Rees, Craig Mitchell, Luke Charteris, Bradley Davies, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Ryan Jones; Lloyd Williams, James Hook, Aled Brew, Ashley Beck, Scott Williams, Morgan Stoddart, Liam Williams

Third XV:
Rhys Gill,
Richard Hibbard, Rhodri Jones, Lou Reed, Dom Day, Josh Turnbull, Martyn Williams, Gareth Delve; Rhys Webb, Dan Biggar, Harry Robinson, Adam Warren, Adam Hughes, Will Harries, Lee Byrne

Fourth XV:
Ryan Bevington, Huw Bennett, Eifron Lewis-Roberts, Ian Gough, Damien Welch, Rob McCusker, Lewis Evans, Andy Powell; Dwayne Peel, Jason Tovey, Tom James, Ashley Smith, Daffydd Hewitt, Richard Fussell, Martyn Thomas

Fifth XV:
John Yapp, T Rhys Thomas, Aaron Jarvis/Joe Rees, Rob Sidoli, James Down, James King, Josh Navidi, Joe Bearman; Martin Roberts, Matthew Morgan, Tom Prydie, Lewis Robling, Tom Isaacs, Chris Czekaj, Steffan Jones

We've actually got a few more scrum halves than that (Gareth Davies, Wayne Evans, even Tom Habberfield all look like decent options, too, but I looked to get at least five capped players into that fifth-choice team) but I really couldn't take it much further. Still, respectable, although we've got to hope we never have so many injuries that we have to field that last team.

 

[SomeOke]

Haha I find it quite amusing that all the other countries had to have their say but no one competes with NZ in terms of quality depth and I'm afraid that includes South Africa guys .
We have enough quality that we're never really going to be that hard hit by injuries (but even then it's positional) and we'll always have a decent team, but just look at that NZ 2nd 22 it's sexy .

edit: and admitting that doesn't make me unpatriotic, it makes me a realist .

 

[Aedaphon]

Haha I find it quite amusing that all the other countries had to have their say but no one competes with NZ in terms of quality depth and I'm afraid that includes South Africa guys .
We have enough quality that we're never really going to be that hard hit by injuries (but even then it's positional) and we'll always have a decent team, but just look at that NZ 2nd 22 it's sexy .

edit: and admitting that doesn't make me unpatriotic, it makes me a realist .

Can't disagree with you there- I'm English but you look at NZ depth in the backline and it's just absolutely unreal.

Fly-half: Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Anscombe- the best in the world and 3 great fly halves with combined probably another 25-30 years in them...
Back three: Savea, Taylor, Dagg, Maitland, Ranger, Wulf, Gear, Toeava... Hell even Tomane was technically a Kiwi :lol:

Any of these players would make the match day 22 for just about any other nation (and the starting XV for most...) NZ are just spoiled for talent.

And hang on- how has no Englishman mentioned Steffon Armitage yet?? If I had my way he'd be starting for the bloody XV in SA <_<