Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Maverick1987]

That arrogant ***, Nigel Wray, has been quoted as saying "As for possibly going back in for one season, I can't see the point in us limping back in where there is still no true democracy with the English clubs constantly being outvoted because of the nature of the set-up." I think Nigel has yet to grasp the essential meaning of the word "democracy". He seems to think that he who has the most money ought to have the most votes. Sorry Nigel, it doesn't work like that![/QUOTE]

How does it work (the voting) is there 1 representative per country or 1 representative per league ?

 

[vyertago]

I just took a quick look at the ERC website and it the board is made up of one person per union.

 

[smartcooky]

Former RFU Chief calls for Mark McCafferty to stand down?
http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/207845.html

[TEXTAREA]Thomas warned the planned breakaway competition was a doubtful starter when it was first launched and questioned "how could they have misjudged the French position so badly?" adding: "The leadership of Premiership Rugby has got to answer some questions. If they feel ERC and the RFU are dysfunctional, they also stand accused of the same failings."[/TEXTAREA]

It certainly is unbelievable that someone with the supposed business acumen of McCafferty would fail to do his due diligence when it came to the French.

Even I knew very early in the piece that French Law was going to be a stumbling block for their participation (I even posted about it). Its remarkable that he either didn't know, or didn't think it was going to be a problem.

 

[smartcooky]

Just a couple of points SC

1. Wray is a multi millionaire and been involved in more business than most people have had hot dinners..........the thought that he does not know the weather and conditions in SA is to be frank, risable!
2. He is now just a shareholder in Saracens, where he was once the owner, which is backed by huge South African interests.
3. He tried to take Biarritz to Cape Town in January couple years back for a H Cup pool game and only failed due to politics in SA about where it would be played.
4. When has the status quo of regulation or governance stopped a determined capitalist.......their aim is to take over the game completely to maximise their return and, to do this they see it necessary to form a super league, with or without the RFU, IRB, that they own and control.
5. I have never heard one word about Wray supporting the English international team never mind the concept of international rugby or tours.........I wait with bated breath for him to come on here and tell me I am wrong!!

Agree with most of that, but just a few comments (para numbers match your comments)

1. Being a clever business person and/or a multimillionaire doesn't mean that you automatically make sensible decisions and good choices. Ever heard of Howard Hughes; the guy was brilliant and a complete froot loop at the same time. Then there is Rebekah Wade (Brooks), a very intelligent, very business savvy woman who rose to become Chief executive of News International, who is now neck deep in poodoo after being involved the the hacking of murdered teenager Milly Dowler's phone

Clever, successful, rich people are still capable of making dumb choices.

4. In 1995, the NZRU, ARU and SARU, which at that time were totally amateur organisations, managed to stop the entire media empire of Kerry Packer dead in its tracks. Packer who had more financial clout in his little finger than Wray will ever have, was going to turn the entire word of rugby on its head by setting up an international rugby circus called the "World Rugby Corporation". Former Wallaby Peter Fitzsimons wrote a book about it called "The Rugby War". If you are at all interested in the history of rugby, and how it became a professional sport, this book reads like a political thriller; underhanded tactics, secret meetings, treachery, deceit, back-room deals, its got it all. A fascinating read.

5. Yep, just like all the other club owners, they cannot be trusted to look after the world game. That's why they must never be given the power.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I was always in two minds about SA joining up with Europe. Certainly there are big plusses; time zone, money, being able to compare our local players with the ones playing in Europe. Yes, we'd not get as much exposure to the type of rugby NZ and Aus play but at the same time they wouldn't get used to playing us and would suffer financially.

But after seeing the amount of BS going on during this saga I think I'd rather we stuck with the devil we know. In fact, rather than our unions becoming privatized I'd want for Meyer to get his wish and have our unions become ever more centralized but I want SARU to get rid of the political agenda and focus on getting SA rugby into as good a position as it can be.

 

[Packman]

Former RFU Chief calls for Mark McCafferty to stand down?
http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/207845.html

[TEXTAREA]Thomas warned the planned breakaway competition was a doubtful starter when it was first launched and questioned "how could they have misjudged the French position so badly?" adding: "The leadership of Premiership Rugby has got to answer some questions. If they feel ERC and the RFU are dysfunctional, they also stand accused of the same failings."[/TEXTAREA]

It certainly is unbelievable that someone with the supposed business acumen of McCafferty would fail to do his due diligence when it came to the French.

Even I knew very early in the piece that French Law was going to be a stumbling block for their participation (I even posted about it). Its remarkable that he either didn't know, or didn't think it was going to be a problem.

Thank god someone has publically called for his resignation, even if Thomas has his own axe to grind, alot of us echo what he's saying. As far as I'm concerned MM has alienated most of europe, set out to wreck ERC for monetary gain and been an dragging the name of English rugby through the mud. And if that wasn't bad enough, he couldn't even see his ruinous plans through and so turned out to be inept as well. If our England players miss out on european cup rugby next season then it will hurt our preparations for the next world cup. insular competitions breed weakness. For years england were smashed at the ruck because english referees interpeted the rules more strictly that the celts and antipodians. You need to be exposed to as many different styles of play as possible to evolve into the apex rugby country. A 28-31 week aviva premiership stop gap will hurt the english national team. the fact we're even faced with this possibility means that Mark Mccatherty and The RFU's chairman Bill Beaumont for encouraging PRL through inaction should resign immediatley. The English rugby authorities have been appallingly inept / ruinous throughout this episode.

 

[Tony Manx]

Thank god someone has publically called for his resignation, even if Thomas has his own axe to grind, alot of us echo what he's saying. As far as I'm concerned MM has alienated most of europe, set out to wreck ERC for monetary gain and been an dragging the name of English rugby through the mud. And if that wasn't bad enough, he couldn't even see his ruinous plans through and so turned out to be inept as well. If our England players miss out on european cup rugby next season then it will hurt our preparations for the next world cup. insular competitions breed weakness. For years england were smashed at the ruck because english referees interpeted the rules more strictly that the celts and antipodians. You need to be exposed to as many different styles of play as possible to evolve into the apex rugby country. A 28-31 week aviva premiership stop gap will hurt the english national team. the fact we're even faced with this possibility means that Mark Mccatherty and The RFU's chairman Bill Beaumont for encouraging PRL through inaction should resign immediatley. The English rugby authorities have been appallingly inept / ruinous throughout this episode.

I would agree with most of that but have to say (albeit but not in his defence because I am against what they are trying to do to the game) McCafferty was appointed with a brief by his employers and, no doubt, he has followed that brief to the exclusion of what is best for anyone other than his employers as any employee should (unless Illegal of course!!).

If anyone shoould be made to suffer it should be his employers but they are, with their control of the EPL, untouchable! So, no I do not blame McCafferty but perhaps he should look again at what he has got himself involved in and with!!

In addition, I love the French people (outside of Paris that is where they are like most big City people) and would defend them to the hilt for their general attitude and particularly to life balance and family BUT I and so have many people, including French, that I know, have found that in business they are impossible! Certainly I would never trust them very far and one is unlikely to win against them under due process!

I believe that it is more than likely that the EPL and the LNR would have had some entered into some sort of Memorandum of Understanding which, although not legally binding, strongly indicated the aims and ambitions of both parties and the ways and means of achieving them.

It is not hard for me to envisage the EPL believing that this document gave them the power to do and say things they have as they believed they had reached an accomdodation with the French only for the French to use it as a gun to the head of the FFR to obtain what they want in France and be ready to walk away from such an agreement when they got that..............and they have!!

 

[Packman]

I would agree with most of that but have to say (albeit but not in his defence because I am against what they are trying to do to the game) McCafferty was appointed with a brief by his employers and, no doubt, he has followed that brief to the exclusion of what is best for anyone other than his employers as any employee should (unless Illegal of course!!).

If anyone shoould be made to suffer it should be his employers but they are, with their control of the EPL, untouchable! So, no I do not blame McCafferty but perhaps he should look again at what he has got himself involved in and with!!

In addition, I love the French people (outside of Paris that is where they are like most big City people) and would defend them to the hilt for their general attitude and particularly to life balance and family BUT I and so have many people, including French, that I know, have found that in business they are impossible! Certainly I would never trust them very far and one is unlikely to win against them under due process!

I believe that it is more than likely that the EPL and the LNR would have had some entered into some sort of Memorandum of Understanding which, although not legally binding, strongly indicated the aims and ambitions of both parties and the ways and means of achieving them.

It is not hard for me to envisage the EPL believing that this document gave them the power to do and say things they have as they believed they had reached an accomdodation with the French only for the French to use it as a gun to the head of the FFR to obtain what they want in France and be ready to walk away from such an agreement when they got that..............and they have!!

Its pretty late in the working day and I wanna go home. So my response to your very well written reply is "Arrggh! Will someone please rid our sport of these cankerous Millionaires!" Its so frustrating that no one in England who are in a position of power gives a damn. Someone has to care enough to do something about it, surely?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Get rid of the cankerous millioaires and you get rid of the sport !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who is going to foot the expense bill players wages ect. The RFU or FFR i very muchdoubt it the TOP 14 we need are cankerous millionaires as you put it and we will endevour to keep them happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Without the millionaires the players wages wouldn't have become so inflated at this point.
There's nothing wrong with millionaires running the clubs, so long as the unions/IRB have ultimate control.

 

[Tony Manx]

Without the millionaires the players wages wouldn't have become so inflated at this point.
There's nothing wrong with millionaires running the clubs, so long as the unions/IRB have ultimate control.

..............of the game and where it is played!!

 

[Tony Manx]

Get rid of the cankerous millioaires and you get rid of the sport

Actually not true as the Barwell family have shown at Saints or Duckworth at Worcester............it is only when you get the guys like Wray trying to make huge amounts for themselves with no thought for their spectators or the greater game that there is a problem!!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Actually not true as the Barwell family have shown at Saints or Duckworth at Worcester............it is only when you get the guys like Wray trying to make huge amounts for themselves with no thought for their spectators or the greater game that there is a problem!!

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Keith Barwell stands down as Saints chairman

Posted 3 years ago

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Northampton Saints today announced that Keith Barwell will be standing down as the club’s chairman in September 2011. Mr Barwell has been synonymous with the Saints for over 20 years. One of the club’s first box holders in the late-1980s, his initial million-pound investment in 1995 ensured that the Saints made the transition to professional rugby union successfully and Mr Barwell has remained one of the driving forces within the English club game ever since.



Read more at http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/keith-barwell-stands-down-as-saints-chairman/#4J7jiQUampOECYXI.99

Sorry Tony but it seems Mon. Barwell was a millionaire after all, cant see him investing all his money and leaving nothing to play with after his retirement. i WONT GO DOWN THE wORCESTER ROAD JUST IN CASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

​

 

[smartcooky]

Get rid of the cankerous millioaires and you get rid of the sport !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who is going to foot the expense bill players wages ect. The RFU or FFR i very muchdoubt it the TOP 14 we need are cankerous millionaires as you put it and we will endevour to keep them happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

► Total Union control over all aspects of the sport from grassroots school-kids to the International Squads
► No millionaire owners!

We must be doing something right on our side of the planet.

 

[St George]

► Total Union control over all aspects of the sport from grassroots school-kids to the International Squads
► No millionaire owners!

We must be doing something right on our side of the planet.

That's a bull**** example to use Cooky, seeing as recently as 19 August until 25 November England were 3rd above Australia. And for the period when the rankings were first used ( 6yrs after professionalism) England were the No1 team. If England had beaten NZ, which they nearly could of, then they in all possibility would of gone second. By your logic they achieved all this due to the fact the English game has owners.
Not to mention the fact that the Celts have copied the NZ way and are still languishing below England & France with their "owners" systems.

 

[Patchey]

Northampton Saints today announced that Keith Barwell will be standing down as the club's chairman in September 2011. Mr Barwell has been synonymous with the Saints for over 20 years. One of the club's first box holders in the late-1980s, his initial million-pound investment in 1995 ensured that the Saints made the transition to professional rugby union successfully and Mr Barwell has remained one of the driving forces within the English club game ever since.



Read more at http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/keith-barwell-stands-down-as-saints-chairman/#4J7jiQUampOECYXI.99

Sorry Tony but it seems Mon. Barwell was a millionaire after all, cant see him investing all his money and leaving nothing to play with after his retirement. i WONT GO DOWN THE wORCESTER ROAD JUST IN CASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

​

I think Tony's whole point was that Barwell was a millionaire but that he invested wisely and slowly in the club rather than just splurging his money on lots of high profile players like Sarries, for example, have done.

Of course Sarries also built themselves a very nice new stadium as well so I guess there has been at least some thought for the future there!

 

[Amiga500]

That's a bull**** example to use Cooky, seeing as recently as 19 August until 25 November England were 3rd above Australia.

Oh, that makes the entire point void then.

As for the Celts and England/France, maybe you want to check out registered player numbers by country...



Would the game disappear if the millionaires exited? No way. Wages would reduce towards a natural level, which would be determined by TV deals, sponsorship and attendance figures. Whats wrong with that?

 

[St George]

Oh, that makes the entire point void then.

As for the Celts and England/France, maybe you want to check out registered player numbers by country...

If the assertion is that the Sanzar teams are now 1, 2 & 3 due to there not being any owners in their setups, then it goes without saying that Englands successful periods in the rankings is due to having owners in their setup. Both points are utter bull****.

And if rankings were to be determined by reg. players, then Ireland Scotland & Australia would be above NZ, and Japan would be above Wales. Stupid comment.

 

[dullonien]

If the assertion is that the Sanzar teams are now 1, 2 & 3 due to there not being any owners in their setups, then it goes without saying that Englands successful periods in the rankings is due to having owners in their setup. Both points are utter bull****.

And if rankings were to be determined by reg. players, then Ireland Scotland & Australia would be above NZ, and Japan would be above Wales. Stupid comment.

Or maybe like everything in life there's a middle ground where aspects of both are true.

i.e. New Zealand are so good because of the systems they have in place, which develops players with superior skill-sets. The NZRU are the ones who have done this. England on the other hand benefit from having a huge player pool.

 

[Maverick1987]

I just took a quick look at the ERC website and it the board is made up of one person per union.

Maybe that's the problem the English and French have ? The Celtic unions obviously have a common interest in the rabo 12 .

Anyone think it could be better if the was a representative per league ?