Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[ratsapprentice]

If they didn't do it this time, I struggle to understand why they are anymore likely next time.

 

[Packman]

There's a lot of talk about the RCC being delayed for a year but thats just the French trying to put a bit of spin on it. Fact is they've been paid â'¬2m each by the FFR. Thats â'¬28m overall. Does anyone think the FFR would pay them that kind of money just so they would play in the HEC for 1 year?

I like this point.

I'm still unsure if Edinburgh and Zebre will be preparing their International players to face top 8 countries like South Africa for example by pitting them against the likes of Bucharesti, Worcester and Oyonanx. European rugby is the step between domestic and test match rugby. If you only have two clubs anyway you can't afford to lose 50% of your player pool over night.

 

[Tony Manx]

It appears to me that the French clubs have used this whole sorry saga as a means of forcing concessions from the FFR and that the PRL are hamstrung with their agreement to play european rugby only with BT coverage next season!

The French have a number of issues and the H Cup is but one of them....the main one for them seems to be the renewal of domestic TV rights and who negotiates them and for how much. I think that the clubs have used the H Cup to gain some concessions from the FFR whilst indicating that they want to get involved with the PRL clubs the following season once they have got everything they want and the FFR are sidelined a bit more than they are at present!

BT will have to agree to delay the start of their "european rights" for a season if the PRL are to be able to play in the H Cup next season and then the new competition will probably become a reality!

Just thoughts on what I have quickly read.......................

 

[smartcooky]

I've seen that the French have agreed to be in the HEC next year....as long as the English clubs are.
So really, we're not that much closer to a resolution as if the English clubs decide to sack next year off, then so will the French.
That said, I've also seen that England may well be in the HEC next year, but while they sort out the RCC for the following season.

The problem I see with this is that 12 months down the line, they are still going to be facing the same stumbling blocks

1. French Law will not have changed

2. The Unions will not approve the RCC, therefore

3. The iRB will not approve the RCC.

I can't see the FFR delegating anything to the LNR that would allow them to determine which competitions they play in.

Further, if the LNR think that the European National Rugby Unions are going support a position that results in a structure like UEFA, they have to be dreaming. Such a structure would be the death knell for international rugby outside of the World Cup.

 

[Jockstap]

Shut up u thick paddy ****

Nice

 

[St George]

Further, if the LNR think that the European National Rugby Unions are going support a position that results in a structure like UEFA, they have to be dreaming. Such a structure would be the death knell for international rugby outside of the World Cup.

I fail to see where you are getting this idea from? UEFA is not a great organisation by a long shot, but its existance has not seen a diminishing of International Football in Europe....quite the contrary. The European Championship is regarded as being a better competition with regard quality than the World Cup. Any suggestion, in fact most suggestions regarding the future of rugby in Europe/Worldwide, is just personal speculation.

I've told you before Cooky, stop talking about a sport you Kiwis no nothing about.

 

[St George]

It appears to me that the French clubs have used this whole sorry saga as a means of forcing concessions from the FFR and that the PRL are hamstrung with their agreement to play european rugby only with BT coverage next season!

The French have a number of issues and the H Cup is but one of them....the main one for them seems to be the renewal of domestic TV rights and who negotiates them and for how much. I think that the clubs have used the H Cup to gain some concessions from the FFR whilst indicating that they want to get involved with the PRL clubs the following season once they have got everything they want and the FFR are sidelined a bit more than they are at present!

BT will have to agree to delay the start of their "european rights" for a season if the PRL are to be able to play in the H Cup next season and then the new competition will probably become a reality!

Just thoughts on what I have quickly read.......................

I agree with you Tony. Both the PRL & LNR went into this with the desire to see a change in the qualification and financing of European domestic rugby. They have got their wish by all accounts. The rest regarding governance seems to have raised its head after they were both ignored by the ERC intransigence. IMO that situation hasnt completely gone away if the comments from the LNR are true. The status quo seems a temporary one at best.

The PRL are being cast (as usual) as the main villans here, but have got most of what they wanted the same as their partners in the LNR. The only stumbling block seems to be the BT contract. From what i can gather, £52m ofthe £152m is for a Euro comp, so losing that will mean they still get £100m. Again, pure speculation as no one knows the exact contract terms as yet. If, as per the LNR wishes, the PRL do join them in the HC for a transitional year, then they will receive monies from Sky. win win scenario.
But if they decide to skip Euros for a year, it will be interesting what position the LNR will take based on their comments.

 

[St George]

A major issue for the teams outside the Premiership and Top 14 was that the RCC would benefit those teams much more than it would Pro 12 teams. Greater finances equal greater chances of signing players from Pro 12 teams. With the FFR seemingly giving â'¬2 million to each club to remain in the ERC fold, the Pro 12 are just as badly off in that regard as they would have been under the RCC.

I believe the Pro 12 know they are going to lose out either way. Remaining in the ERC is about governance but also, and equally importantly to them in my opinion, about giving Mark McCafferty and PRL a bloody nose. It's my belief that they want to punish PRL for creating this whole farce whether it's for the benefit of European rugby or not.

I cant see that the Pro12 have given the PRL a bloody nose at all.... seeing as the PRL have got the concessions they asked for in qualification and finance. The only problem for them is the BT contract, and IMO if they haven't had the foresight to allow for the Euro comp issues, then they deserve what they get.

Personally, im happy with how it seems to be turning out, with the required concessions agreed, and still a sort of governance(if only for the short term) involving the Unions.

 

[smartcooky]

I fail to see where you are getting this idea from? UEFA is not a great organisation by a long shot, but its existance has not seen a diminishing of International Football in Europe....quite the contrary. The European Championship is regarded as being a better competition with regard quality than the World Cup. Any suggestion, in fact most suggestions regarding the future of rugby in Europe/Worldwide, is just personal speculation.

I've told you before Cooky, stop talking about a sport you Kiwis no nothing about.

But the European Championship is only every four years, staggered two years from the FIFA World Cup, Its Rugby equivalent, the Six Nations is every year.

Under a UEFA type arrangement, where the Clubs will be in total control of all domestic rugby in Europe, you can (eventually) kiss the Autumn Internationals and the June Tours goodbye. They will simply expand and expands the domestic rugby, and leave no room for the international stuff.

Oh for sure, the PRL and LNR make all the right noises about making sure that international agreements are in place, but can they be trusted? I think the events of the last few weeks, where both PRL and LNR have acted with utter disregard for the fans and the sponsors, have made aggressive statements that have turned out to be bare-faced lies, and have acted in very bad faith, has clearly show that they emphatically cannot be trusted with control of the game. Its obvious to anyone with half a brain that they do not have the good of the game at heart, and the only thing they really care about is their bottom lines.

That arrogant ***, Nigel Wray, has been quoted as saying "As for possibly going back in for one season, I can't see the point in us limping back in where there is still no true democracy with the English clubs constantly being outvoted because of the nature of the set-up." I think Nigel has yet to grasp the essential meaning of the word "democracy". He seems to think that he who has the most money ought to have the most votes. Sorry Nigel, it doesn't work like that!

 

[gaston le gaff]

RÉUNION DES PRÉSIDENTS DE CLUBS

Les représentants des clubs de TOP 14 et PRO D2 se
sont réunis ce jour à Orly sous l'égide de la
LNR.
Les clubs ont tout d'abord pris connaissance de l'i
ssue des négociations sur la nouvelle
Convention FFR/LNR.
En ce qui concerne les Coupes d'Europe, les clubs f
rançais se félicitent de constater que toutes
les parties ont à ce jour exprimé leur acco
rd sur le nouveau format des compé***ions et les
principes de répartition financière, qui correspond
ent à la plate-
forme initiale élaborée par la
LNR.
Les clubs se sont prononcés de façon unanime pour q
u'une nouvelle structure soit mise en
place pour org
aniser les nouvelles compé***ions européennes en ac
cord avec les fédérations
concernées.
Compte tenu de l'importance des travaux pour parven
ir à la mise en place de la nouvelle
structure à partir de la saison 2015/2016, le princ
ipe d'une période transitoire d'une année,
permettant d'appliquer dès la saison prochaine les
nouveaux formats de com
pé***ions
regroupant les meilleures équipes des 6 pays et les
nouveaux principes de répartition
financière, a été validé. Cette période transitoire
pourra avoir lieu dans le cadre de la structure
actuelle, dès lors que sa gouvernance sera modifiée
, et répo
ndra notamment aux attentes des
clubs sur la gestion des affaires commerciales.
This is the press release by the LNR from the meeting in Paris on Thurs,they agree to play next season in the H Cup and Amlin but from 2015/16 the format will be 6 teams qualifying from the 3 championships and they have set an agreement to show how the finacial side of it all will work and how it will be shared by the clubs. The reason why the teams are playing next season is that to organise a new tourmament for next season is not possible and this will give a good 18 months to organise the new tournament properly.

 

[smartcooky]

This is the press release by the LNR from the meeting in Paris on Thurs,they agree to play next season in the H Cup and Amlin but from 2015/16 the format will be 6 teams qualifying from the 3 championships and they have set an agreement to show how the finacial side of it all will work and how it will be shared by the clubs. The reason why the teams are playing next season is that to organise a new tourmament for next season is not possible and this will give a good 18 months to organise the new tournament properly.

That's only 18 teams. Where are the other two going to come from?

 

[gaston le gaff]

That's only 18 teams. Where are the other two going to come from?

Think about it, maybe the winner of the H Cup and the Amlin for example, or maybe a couple of teams from outerspace and you call yourself smart cooky !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smartcooky]

Think about it, maybe the winner of the H Cup and the Amlin for example, or maybe a couple of teams from outerspace and you call yourself smart cooky !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I thought the Amlin was being gotten rid of. Is that not happening now?

 

[Peat]

Under a UEFA type arrangement, where the Clubs will be in total control of all domestic rugby in Europe, you can (eventually) kiss the Autumn Internationals and the June Tours goodbye. They will simply expand and expands the domestic rugby, and leave no room for the international stuff.

That, or they want to take over international rugby as well. After all, it makes more money than the clubs per game. Paul Ackford in the Times today for those who can read it

 

[Tony Manx]

It is pertinent that the despicable Wray of Saracens has dismissed SA involvement in the european competitions only for the moment and forsees it happening in due course.............once of course he and the other greedy barstewards have gained control of the game (club, international and governing bodies no doubt) when they will completely sideline the loyal supporters of many years standing to play their games solely for TV all over the world in the hunt for the mega bucks!

Meanwhile the players union sits back, allows their members to take their bucks and does nothing to protect the game against the corporates to their great discredit!

The other point Wray makes is that he wishes to widen the EPL to include the Welsh teams at the least...........meaning more club games annually to be played and leaving less time for Internationals or Tours which he sees as useless as there is no money for him in it until he gets control of them also!!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Wray is trying to keep RRW on board with the RCC with his comments. The Welsh clubs are tied to the Pro 12 for another 3 years so can't jump and join the English league.

 

[gaston le gaff]

But I thought the Amlin was being gotten rid of. Is that not happening now?

The Amlin is only the sponsor the comp is still run by ERC

 

[smartcooky]

The other point Wray makes is that he wishes to widen the EPL to include the Welsh teams at the least...........

Wray is trying to keep RRW on board with the RCC with his comments. The Welsh clubs are tied to the Pro 12 for another 3 years so can't jump and join the English league.

Well I doubt they could join the Premiership at all, because if they did, that would make the Premiership a cross-borders competition, requiring the approval of the RFU, the WRU and the iRB.


As for joining with South Africa, well, that idea is just batsh¡t crazy.

Firstly, its a common misconception that South Africa is in the same time zone as England; it isn't. Its time zone is the same as Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria.

Secondly, I think Wray probably hasn't been to South Africa during their summer (I have). All I can say is good luck to all the NH Clubs who want to play rugby in South Africa at that time of year. They will have to increase their squad sizes to allow for all the extra injuries they will get because the grounds are rock-hard and the temperatures can top 40°C, especially at the low altitudes (not so bad up on the veldt). Playing at night will be hardly any relief; when you get tackled, its like falling on concrete. He should ask himself why South Africans don't play rugby in their summer?

 

[Tony Manx]

Well I doubt they could join the Premiership at all, because if they did, that would make the Premiership a cross-borders competition, requiring the approval of the RFU, the WRU and the iRB. As for joining with South Africa, well, that idea is just batsh¡t crazy. Firstly, its a common misconception that South Africa is in the same time zone as England; it isn't. Its time zone is the same as Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria. Secondly, I think Wray probably hasn't been to South Africa during their summer (I have). All I can say is good luck to all the NH Clubs who want to play rugby in South Africa at that time of year. They will have to increase their squad sizes to allow for all the extra injuries they will get because the grounds are rock-hard and the temperatures can top 40°C, especially at the low altitudes (not so bad up on the veldt). Playing at night will be hardly any relief; when you get tackled, its like falling on concrete. He should ask himself why South Africans don't play rugby in their summer?

Just a couple of points SC

1. Wray is a multi millionaire and been involved in more business than most people have had hot dinners..........the thought that he does not know the weather and conditions in SA is to be frank, risable!
2. He is now just a shareholder in Saracens, where he was once the owner, which is backed by huge South African interests.
3. He tried to take Biarritz to Cape Town in January couple years back for a H Cup pool game and only failed due to politics in SA about where it would be played.
4. When has the status quo of regulation or governance stopped a determined capitalist.......their aim is to take over the game completely to maximise their return and, to do this they see it necessary to form a super league, with or without the RFU, IRB, that they own and control.
5. I have never heard one word about Wray supporting the English international team never mind the concept of international rugby or tours.........I wait with bated breath for him to come on here and tell me I am wrong!!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Well I doubt they could join the Premiership at all, because if they did, that would make the Premiership a cross-borders competition, requiring the approval of the RFU, the WRU and the iRB.


As for joining with South Africa, well, that idea is just batsh¡t crazy.

Firstly, its a common misconception that South Africa is in the same time zone as England; it isn't. Its time zone is the same as Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria.

Secondly, I think Wray probably hasn't been to South Africa during their summer (I have). All I can say is good luck to all the NH Clubs who want to play rugby in South Africa at that time of year. They will have to increase their squad sizes to allow for all the extra injuries they will get because the grounds are rock-hard and the temperatures can top 40°C, especially at the low altitudes (not so bad up on the veldt). Playing at night will be hardly any relief; when you get tackled, its like falling on concrete. He should ask himself why South Africans don't play rugby in their summer?

I agree, the IRB won't sanction an Anglo-Welsh League if it leaves the Scottish, Italian and Irish districts/clubs/provinces in the lurch. The only way the Welsh and English clubs will join up in a league is if there's a larger European league involving all the teams. That's where the line about the " integration of European competitions within an all encompassing European rugby framework" saw me sit up and take notice. Are ERC and consequently the Unions involved looking to move towards a single competition in place of the Top 14, Pro 12 and Premiership or is it just a bull**** line in a press release?

Wray is playing up to South Africa's constant talk about joining the Northern Hemisphere season. As he views it, the English market is more attractive to SA than the NZ/Australian market. Likewise SA is a bigger market for the Premiership to exploit. A 2 hour time zone difference is also infinitely preferable to that which SA currently face. For it to happen, once again IRB approval would be needed (and wouldn't come because of the damage to NZ and Australia's finances) and the European season would have to shift from a winter league to a summer league.

Wray is playing up the South African influence at his club.