Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Packman]

http://www.thescore.ie/heineken-cup-top-14-1195504-Nov2013/

[TEXTAREA]THE PRESIDENTS OF the Top 14 clubs are set to meet close to Paris on Thursday to make a final decision on their future involvement in European club rugby.

The PRL [Premier Rugby Ltd.] has long counted the French clubs as their ally and partner in forming the new Rugby Champions Cup next season, having received vocal support from Paul Goze, the president of the LNR [Ligue Nationale de Rugby] â€" the umbrella organisation that represents the interests of the Top 14 teams.

However, that agreement is understood to be on the brink of ruin this evening, with strong suggestions that the LNR will tomorrow cede to the wishes of French rugby’s governing body, the FFR [Fédération Française de Rugby], and agree to play on in the Heineken Cup next season.

Pierre Camou has been insistent that the LNR has been completely ignoring French rugby law by agreeing to play in the Rugby Champions Cup, and it seems now that the Top 14 clubs’ presidents may admit to defeat in this particular battle.

The Top 14 clubs are unhappy with the governing rule the FFR has over them and an agreement is in place for the LNR to assume more of the organizational responsibility for French club rugby with the signing of a new accord between the parties on the 7th of December.

However, FFR president Pierre Camou is threatening to renege on that agreement if the Top 14 clubs do not agree to remain an in ERC [European Rugby Cup]-run competition next season. Further complicating the issue from the LNR’s point of view is the fact that the Top 14 TV rights are set to be lucratively renewed next month, a move which the FFR could also hinder.

Leading French rugby journalist Arnaud David, writing in Sud Ouest, suggests that Toulouse, Clermont, Montpellier and Jacky Lorenzetti’s Racing Métro are ready to engage the FFR in ‘a conflict’, but says that the other 10 clubs feel they must look after their own priorities rather than continuing to support the English.

The ERC, led by the Irish, Scottish, Italian and Welsh regions has conceded to exactly the demands that the French clubs made when they insisted they would leave the Heineken Cup and it now appears that the LNR will fall in line with the FFR.

How the English clubs react to that would be a fascinating story of its own.
[/TEXTAREA]

I think this more ore less summarizes the French article I posted earlier.

If the LNR really does give in to the FFR tomorrow, then that really is "Game Over" for the Rugby Champions Cup.

It would be great if we can finally put this to bed. Although I fear English rugby fans like me will still end up paying for PRL's greed next year. If English rugby gets left out in the cold next season then I want Mark McCatherty and co's heads on a plate. What PRL have done this year is so appallingly self serving and ruinous for English rugby's relations with our neigbours that you could probably push regionalisation through on the back of it and even if that sets English rugby back at least ten years, and it will, it will still set firm foundations for a stronger more rugby-centic set up in the long run. This whole situation wouldn't have happened if we didn't have millionaire businessmen owning our clubs and behaving like feudal barons behind an incompetent king's back.

 

[Amiga500]

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 3m

#réuniondOrly Les clubs français se rangent à l'unanimité derrière la fédé RIPRCC

France’s Top 14 sides are set to remain in the Heineken Cup next season after a meeting today in Orly, according to reports in French rugby newspaper Midi Olympique.

According to the paper’s website, the French clubs “have decided to disassociate from their English counterparts and remain under the umbrella of the ERCâ€.

The French National Rugby League convened a meeting today to discuss the draft proposals for a breakaway Rugby Champions Cup that would involve the top sides from England’s Premiership and the Top 14 leading a new European competition.

The decision followed a vote, although not all clubs are believed to have backed the decision to stay with the ERC.

**looks** like the big-boned lady is tuning up...


If so; what a bloody disaster this whole episode has been.

 

[profitius]

So does that mean the English club owners and PRL will have to do the most embarrassing U-turn in sporting history?!

 

[Peat]

Hate to say it, but I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. The crucial words there are next season. So we may end up with the French doing a runner in the long temr. What a mess.

 

[smartcooky]

Mark McCafferty as Private Hudson....

 

[smartcooky]

Hate to say it, but I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. The crucial words there are next season. So we may end up with the French doing a runner in the long temr. What a mess.

But they will still face the same problem... the FFR won't let them break away, and they are certain to write some conditions into the agreement to be negotiated on December 7

 

[steblin]

Wow, English sure did screw the pooch on this one

 

[smartcooky]

Can any Welshies on board speculate on what might happen with the Welsh Regions? I thought they had sided with PRL, and look now to have backed the wrong horse. In the mean time the WRU is sticking with ERC.

What the hell is going on west of the Severn Bridge?

 

[Bluemoon]

Can any Welshies on board speculate on what might happen with the Welsh Regions? I thought they had sided with PRL, and look now to have backed the wrong horse. In the mean time the WRU is sticking with ERC.

What the hell is going on west of the Severn Bridge?

In honesty, its a bit of a complicated situation in Wales. I will try and summarise as briefly as possible and others can correct me on the finer detail.

- The regions need european rugby to survive or they will fold, as other revenue streams won't cover the costs on their own.
- The regions must have thought that the French and English were definitely not going to join the ERC comp. These are really the countries that bring the biggest gates for the regions. Therefore, it must have seemed logical for the regions (not the WRU) to potentially back the anglo-french competition (that is my speculation). They never said they would definitely join.
- The WRU and the Regions have an interesting relationship. Roger Lewis and the WRU said they would not back the regions in their decision and threatened to remove funding to the regions + other benefits of working with the WRU.
- The french now are not as involved with the breakaway as the English media suggested, and now the regions, I assume, will go along with the competition with the proposed ERC and the WRU funding remains. This is probably more financially beneficial than breaking away with England alone and losing the WRU funding.

I think the regions are waiting to see what offers are on the table before they make a commitment. I think they only went public on their position between competitions in first place because of the pressure its causing on re-signing the top players in Wales who want to stay. Really, it's not a bad position to be in other than the fact of until it's sorted, no big contracts for the star players.

That's a very simplified version of what's going on here, I think. Fellow countrymen may shed a bit more light!

 

[Amiga500]

What the hell is going on west of the Severn Bridge?

I was of the opinion the regions just used the RCC as a stalking horse to get more money/concessions from the WRU...


[beyond that - I'm not sure if they cared which competition they played in... just whatever one gave them the most money for the next season or two]

 

[Maverick1987]

I think probably the fact that an Irish run erc have been shoehorning half the money out of the HC for the best part of 20 years is the reason English and French want to leave and the French have only signed up for 1 more year supposedly to give 1 season of transition and more time to make the changes they want . They have also said they won't play in a competition without the English clubs . Although I don't really trust them after the last week or so lol

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Seems to me most of the English and French concerns have been addressed and rightly so.Should also bring some much needed intensity to the Pro 12 too.From an English point of view any financial gains could end up going to BT instead of the clubs concerned.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've seen that the French have agreed to be in the HEC next year....as long as the English clubs are.
So really, we're not that much closer to a resolution as if the English clubs decide to sack next year off, then so will the French.
That said, I've also seen that England may well be in the HEC next year, but while they sort out the RCC for the following season.

 

[Maverick1987]

I've seen that the French have agreed to be in the HEC next year....as long as the English clubs are.
So really, we're not that much closer to a resolution as if the English clubs decide to sack next year off, then so will the French.
That said, I've also seen that England may well be in the HEC next year, but while they sort out the RCC for the following season.

I agree with this

They are just giving themselves time

I don't really see the bad points about stating the new comp

It will be more money for the clubs the welsh regions especially need that

 

[Amiga500]

I think probably the fact that an Irish run erc have been shoehorning half the money out of the HC for the best part of 20 year

Sorry but what the **** are you on about?

The ERC is based in Dublin due to the advantageous corporate tax rate in the country.

The ERC is a limited company set up by the 6 main European unions. It even includes PRL and LNR members on its various subcommittees. The committees are in the top link (below).

The revenue splits are contained in the bottom link. There is a long way between 15% and 50%.

http://www.ercrugby.com/erc/about/about.php

http://www.ercrugby.com/erc/about/index.php

I've seen that the French have agreed to be in the HEC next year....as long as the English clubs are.
So really, we're not that much closer to a resolution as if the English clubs decide to sack next year off, then so will the French.
That said, I've also seen that England may well be in the HEC next year, but while they sort out the RCC for the following season.

I've seen it that they "reserve the right not to play in the HEC if the English are not in it".

Which is not the same as "not playing in the HEC if the English are not in it".

 

[Packman]

Having read these three stories on planet rugby, I'm not sure if Edinburgh, Connaught and Zebre are safe quite yet.

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3822_9046656,00.html

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3822_9047590,00.html

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3822_9047902,00.html

basically although we will get one more eurocup next year (which is something no one takes for granted anymore. savour it my friends) LNR and PRL are still trying to get their way. I just get the feeling LNR are playing for time. The FFR agreed to give them more powers in a few weeks time if they agreed to go back to the ERC but I'm wondering what will prevent them doing the exact same thing next year and from a even stronger position of power? Maybe this time they'll have French law on their side. I just hope that Ireland, Scotland and Italy continue to play hard ball and nail LNR down while they have the chance, but I think they need to be very clear what controls the FFR will devolve down to LNR in a few weeks time and make sure their's clauses that'll stop LNR doing what they tried to do this season. Otherwise Scottish and Italian rugby including the test teams will be hit so hard they may as well go amateur again and call it a day.

PRL are in a bit of a ****hole but English rugby players ad rugby fans will lose out too. I really cannot believe just how any sporting organisation can tolerate what PRL has done. England is looking at European rugby isolation and its solely down to PRL. Governments would fall if their foreign policy resembled the way PRL try to do business, they are ruinous and incompetent. How can PRL continue? How big a bunch of mindless sheep are the RFU and your typical English rugby player and rugby fan that they let this happen and continue to allow PRL to operate in our midst? Look what they did. They do not deserve to have a place in English rugby. In any other walk of life they would be out on their ears. Their continuation in English rugby is unacceptable.

 

[Maverick1987]

Sorry but what the **** are you on about?

The ERC is based in Dublin due to the advantageous corporate tax rate in the country.

The ERC is a limited company set up by the 6 main European unions. It even includes PRL and LNR members on its various subcommittees. The committees are in the top link (below).

The revenue splits are contained in the bottom link. There is a long way between 15% and 50%.

http://www.ercrugby.com/erc/about/about.php

http://www.ercrugby.com/erc/about/index.php




I've seen it that they "reserve the right not to play in the HEC if the English are not in it".

Which is not the same as "not playing in the HEC if the English are not in it".

I apologise . I was misinformed by someone about it

I still maintain it won't be sorted for the few months

I highly doubt the English clubs will not play next year like olly said it's just for the time being until it's sorted with the new qualification and finance distribution

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I agree with this

They are just giving themselves time

I don't really see the bad points about stating the new comp

It will be more money for the clubs the welsh regions especially need that

A major issue for the teams outside the Premiership and Top 14 was that the RCC would benefit those teams much more than it would Pro 12 teams. Greater finances equal greater chances of signing players from Pro 12 teams. With the FFR seemingly giving €2 million to each club to remain in the ERC fold, the Pro 12 are just as badly off in that regard as they would have been under the RCC.

I believe the Pro 12 know they are going to lose out either way. Remaining in the ERC is about governance but also, and equally importantly to them in my opinion, about giving Mark McCafferty and PRL a bloody nose. It's my belief that they want to punish PRL for creating this whole farce whether it's for the benefit of European rugby or not.

 

[Maverick1987]

A major issue for the teams outside the Premiership and Top 14 was that the RCC would benefit those teams much more than it would Pro 12 teams. Greater finances equal greater chances of signing players from Pro 12 teams. With the FFR seemingly giving â'¬2 million to each club to remain in the ERC fold, the Pro 12 are just as badly off in that regard as they would have been under the RCC.

I believe the Pro 12 know they are going to lose out either way. Remaining in the ERC is about governance but also, and equally importantly to them in my opinion, about giving Mark McCafferty and PRL a bloody nose. It's my belief that they want to punish PRL for creating this whole farce whether it's for the benefit of European rugby or not.

The erc have hardly been quick about things though . They called an urgent meeting then waited a month to hold it . If I were the main man in the RFU I would be a bit ****** if they didn't invite me to a meeting between the unions because the RFU have sat on the fence a bit tbh

 

[profitius]

Theres a lot of talk about the RCC being delayed for a year but thats just the French trying to put a bit of spin on it. Fact is they've been paid €2m each by the FFR. Thats €28m overall. Does anyone think the FFR would pay them that kind of money just so they would play in the HEC for 1 year?