F1 Racing

[pagliaccio_euforico]

People wouldn't be so happy if Kvyat were to be kicked out of races because of this. I wouldn't have an issue with the FIA banning money coming from Russia but for a country to a ban a driver is a bit over the top. It's not like any drivers were banned over the war in Iraq or German drivers were banned over the invasion of Austria.

People just want to see mazepin gone which I get, but imo I don't like the rule.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Why is the banning of individual Russian civilians cheered?

Is every Russian civilian to be punished and condemned in society for the actions of their government, a government which the UK government believed was not one placed in power by popular support?

Because the most common way for regimes like Russia to get around sanctions and appear "respectable" is through plausible deniability. Yes Mazepin has nothing to do with Ukraine, neither do Russian football clubs or the majority of Russian oligarchs or even the majority of the Russian people and yet the message needs to be sent that Russia as a whole will not be welcome as they continue their invasion of Ukraine and their path of belligerence. The same was the case with apartheid.

However Mazepins father has had more than a few close links with the Russian state.

 

[Reiser99]

Why is the banning of individual Russian civilians cheered?

Is every Russian civilian to be punished and condemned in society for the actions of their government, a government which the UK government believed was not one placed in power by popular support?

I agree to an extent. Individual Russians should not be punished, especially those who chose to leave their country. However, Mazepin bought his seat with his father's money and there is no way his father will have become a billionaire without strong ties to the state. In his specific case I'm fine with him not being allowed to race

 

[ncurd]

Will take him to the age 29-30. Good for him in some ways, bad in others all the other drivers I would call greats won championships with more than one team. So he will either change at the end of this or never really be considered one on my own personal very arbitrary rules.

Plus if Red Bull ever screw up with regulations he is stuck for a very long time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Red Bull were saying Hamilton's salary demands as a reigning 7 time world champion were too high for the sport but are now apparently paying Verstappen, a 1 time champ, and a dodgy championship at that, the same as Hamilton...

There are quite a lot of 1 time champs, being able to do it year on year is where it counts. Verstappen is currently level with Button on championships for perspective. Red bull just love gaslighting.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Will take him to the age 29-30. Good for him in some ways, bad in others all the other drivers I would call greats won championships with more than one team. So he will either change at the end of this or never really be considered one on my own personal very arbitrary rules.

Plus if Red Bull ever screw up with regulations he is stuck for a very long time.

Senna not a great?

 

[ncurd]

Senna not a great?

Interesting point, almost certainly would of won in a Williams though if not for tragic circumstances.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Interesting point, almost certainly would of won in a Williams though if not for tragic circumstances.

Fair point, I can't really agree with your rule (which you admit is arbitrary so I won't argue it just give my opinion).

I find is extremely hard to exclude Vettel, four championships in a row with a record 9 race wins in a row span, youngest championship winner and pole sitter with two championships won on the last weekend as well as a win with a backmarker.

To be honest I look at Seb's career and the only major blemishes are multi-21 and Germany 2018, he left RB at the correct time but ran into the most dominant period one team has ever enjoyed in the sport.

Alonso would be the other in my lifetime, arguably more talented than Seb but couldn't make a good career decision and had many unjustified bad relationships with colleagues (the Ron Dennis fallout being the only one I can really get behind) so he was definitely partially at fault for his troubles. His nearly seasons with Ferrari were incredible though, took a dog to one final day track position from the world championship twice.

Goes without saying that Hamilton and Schumacher are greats. And Hakkinen would be my standard bearer for as good as a driver can be without hitting the threshold.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Anyone that can win a championship in a clearly inferior car should be considered a great over a multi champ in the best motor.

So Senna, Alonso, Schumacher (Benetton) become great in my mind, Verstappen pretty much there also despite the RB being pretty much an equal of the Merc last year (given his outright speed and overtaking ability demonstrated - despite my personal dislike of some of his tactics).

Vettel, Mansell, Hill, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, N. Rosberg - these are guys with one or more championship that I couldn't personally consider as greats. Agree Mika probably the best on that list as he showed early career talent. The way I think of it is a qualifying superstar like Jarno Trulli would probably have won ***les in a dominant car due to the amount of poles he would have got and the difficulty of overtaking. But truly was clearly well, well short of greatness.

Hard to tell with so little overtaking opportunities, so hopefully we will start to get better insight into individual performance from this season onwards.

 

[ncurd]

Schumacher's Benneton car was almost certainly illegal so was the best car on the track. You can't dispute his overall record though and went he went to Ferrari they were on a major rebuild which he was part of.

Sebs issue is he has look ordinary in the mid pack compared to Alonso who has looked anything but.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Well in 1994, Schumacher's three combined teammates scored a total of 11 points. Jos Verstappen scored 10 of them to finish 10th overall. Hardly top car form.

In 1995 I'd agree it could have been the best car. Herbert managed to bag two wins in it.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Hakkinen's 99 win was also probably in the second best car. It balances out because he was against Irvine who was on the quicker end of ordinary and spent a large portion of the season as second driver.

Not trying to refute anything, I just love Mika.

Can't agree on the Vettel assessments though, he had an early peak and wasn't the same driver in the hybrid era but achieved too much at Toro Rosso and RB not to be considered a great. His first win was in a worse car than Hamilton ever raced in and he had far more competition for his ***les than Hamilton had for any of his Merc ones. 4 in a row is a very select group, 9 in a row is a group of one, a race winner for three different teams, podiums for four different teams. He's not in the GOAT conversation but definitely in and around the same level as Prost for me, never won a championship in the slower car but a devastatingly good front runner with the fastest car which many a good driver has shown is more difficult than it looks (go back to the aforementioned 99 season Mika)

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I don't know how you can say for sure which car was better last year. Verstappen has a lot more to prove in order to be considered a great.

Vettel is a bit unlucky that they all came at once and imho webber is a lot closer to botas than he is to Rosberg.

I think Hamilton's ability to beat other solid drivers in equal cars is what separates him from others in his generation. Just his rookie year vs Alonso is an impressive resume builder.

 

[ncurd]

I don't know how you can say for sure which car was better last year. Verstappen has a lot more to prove in order to be considered a great.

Vettel is a bit unlucky that they all came at once and imho webber is a lot closer to botas than he is to Rosberg.

I think Hamilton's ability to beat other solid drivers in equal cars is what separates him from others in his generation. Just his rookie year vs Alonso is an impressive resume builder.

Honestly think Webber was better than Roseberg, I know all teams play favourites but Red Bull have probably been the biggest culprits over the years.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't know how you can say for sure which car was better last year. Verstappen has a lot more to prove in order to be considered a great.

Vettel is a bit unlucky that they all came at once and imho webber is a lot closer to botas than he is to Rosberg.

I think Hamilton's ability to beat other solid drivers in equal cars is what separates him from others in his generation. Just his rookie year vs Alonso is an impressive resume builder.

This is the one that always baffled me, how Alonso is a great but Hamilton is only good because of the car. Hamilton beats Alonso in the same car and that accounts for nothing? I find with Hamilton in particular people tend to tie themselves in knots and perform some of the most incredible mental gymnastics to denigrate what he has achieved.

I don't think any other driver has had their achievements dismissed as readily as Hamilton. The fact a multiple world record holder doesn't even enter into contention for some people is staggering. I can't think of a single other person with as many achievements in their sport who is so readily dismissed. I'm not even a Hamilton fan (been McLaren since I started watching in the late 90's and Hakkinen was my driver) but can still see the ridiculous treatment he gets from certain fans.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would have Webber right in the middle. I don't think Bottas could have won a race in any other car apart from the dominant ones he had, Webber was never world championship quality but could grind out a win, Rosberg obviously was championship quality. I think Peak Vettel was as good as Hamilton, the longevity just wasn't there.

This is the one that always baffled me, how Alonso is a great but Hamilton is only good because of the car. Hamilton beats Alonso in the same car and that accounts for nothing? I find with Hamilton in particular people tend to tie themselves in knots and perform some of the most incredible mental gymnastics to denigrate what he has achieved.

I don't think any other driver has had their achievements dismissed as readily as Hamilton. The fact a multiple world record holder doesn't even enter into contention for some people is staggering. I can't think of a single other person with as many achievements in their sport who is so readily dismissed. I'm not even a Hamilton fan (been McLaren since I started watching in the late 90's and Hakkinen was my driver) but can still see the ridiculous treatment he gets from certain fans.

I don't dismiss how good Hamilton is, top three of all time, take your pick of arguments for GOAT.

His rookie season was a mess though. That McLaren set up was rotten to the core and totally ostracised Alonso. Dennis wanted Ham to win the championship in his rookie season and acted accordingly despite Alonso clearly being quicker early on. Alonso was ****** over in Canada and Hungary and left with no faith in his team. Hamilton was obviously a massively impressive rookie but "beating" / drawing with Alonso that year wasn't as big an achievement as it's made out.

McLaren threw away a constructors that year through cheating and a driver's by not managing their drivers.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

And said mental gymnastics.

Anyway mazepin is outz. Apparently is going to be replaced by fittipaldi who last ran the ovals for grosjean's car in Indy. They are going to have to look for someone who can actually race.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I would have Webber right in the middle. I don't think Bottas could have won a race in any other car apart from the dominant ones he had, Webber was never world championship quality but could grind out a win, Rosberg obviously was championship quality. I think Peak Vettel was as good as Hamilton, the longevity just wasn't there.


I don't dismiss how good Hamilton is, top three of all time, take your pick of arguments for GOAT.

His rookie season was a mess though. That McLaren set up was rotten to the core and totally ostracised Alonso. Dennis wanted Ham to win the championship in his rookie season and acted accordingly despite Alonso clearly being quicker early on. Alonso was ****** over in Canada and Hungary and left with no faith in his team. Hamilton was obviously a massively impressive rookie but "beating" / drawing with Alonso that year wasn't as big an achievement as it's made out.

McLaren threw away a constructors that year through cheating and a driver's by not managing their drivers.

I mean, this is mental gymnastics right here isn't it? Yeah Hamilton is ok but he had Ron Dennis supporting him and Alonso was screwed over and it was all set up for him. Then next year it's because he has the best car then the following years are all proof he is rubbish and he was widely mocked for moving to Mercedes until it turned out it was actually a very good move, but then suddenly again it's all the car and it was all Schumacher who developed the car, Hamilton had no input etc etc. There is an excuse for everything. The vast majority of seasons are won by the driver in the best car or close 2nd best. That was the case with Schumacher and Senna too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I mean, this is mental gymnastics right here isn't it?

Not really, it's just one achievement, I never mentioned his championships.

Fernando wins that championship in a good environment.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

And said mental gymnastics.