[EOYT] Ireland vs New Zealand 24/11/13

[The Jones Boy]

No mate it's as plain as day, McGrath is going down and he has Reid in a headlock and Reid does NOT break away from it until he's down on the ground dragged down by McGrath who does not let go thereby collapsing the maul, right there on tv, Jack McGrath no.17 has him, he's off his feet not supporting his own body weight and he keeps hanging on, thats illegal and it brought down the maul. I gave you the time frame and it's as plain as day mate.
1:25;00 to -03, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985d5nBQjOE&list=TLyI2UtGNWgfv2xaOSNEbC1uLOCljj7Y5B
...from the side on view with the touchline camera clear as a bell, McGrath pulls Reid in a headlock on top of him and collapses the maul in front of Owens.
Smart play because he got away with it.
From that field position a penalty is EXACTLY what Ireland wanted. They hadn't looked like getting near the AB tryline in the 2nd half and through cunning and clever gamesmanship by McGrath, he achieved it.
Fair play to him.
It's not McGrath's fault that Sexton failed with the kick.

 

[William18]

Ugh, I still feel terrible. For all those saying Ireland deserved to win I have to agree with all those saying they didn't. The games made up of tight margins and had Johnny Cash made his kick, Devon Toner not given away that stupid penalty, we held them out at the end or gone for a drop goal with 30 seconds on the clock on their 22 we'd have deserved it, one of those four things and we'd have beaten New Zealand. As it happened we didn't! New Zealand scored 2 very well worked tries in the second half and we gifted them the aforementioned penalty, they did what they needed to do to win and we did not so therefore they deserved the win.

To answer the New Zealanders claims of Nigel Owens giving Ireland the advantage I'd like to point out the collapsed maul on New Zealand's 5m line where Ireland received just a penalty, that is a yellow card offence for me considering Ireland had mauled from around the 22, I'm not giving this as a reason that Ireland should have won the game but rather that the referee wasn't only wrong at times against New Zealand but also against Ireland.

All in all it was a bloody good performance and ZeFrenchy there is no reason that we cannot be both proud and disappointed, we put in our best performance against the All Blacks for 40 years and the mistakes that lost us the game will be learnt from and I firmly believe that by the time Joe Schmidt leaves the Ireland set up "Beating the All Blacks" will be ticked off the bucket list. I don't want to go into the intricacies of the game because it would be too painful but Irish rugby is in a good state, the players will push on from this and winning the 6nations and hopefully a Grand Slam must be achieved by this group of players if we want to challenge in the World Cup. It is extremely disappointing but I like to think it's encouraging that we can put this in the bracket of "should have" games against the All Blacks against the All Blacks along with 1973 and not in the brackets of "could have" or "Never to be spoken of again"!!!

And anyway if there's one thing I know for certain nobody beats Ireland 23 times in a row!!!


Edit: Sorry I just saw Jones Boy's comment, I'm not saying that this game was better than the Ireland game because personally it was horrible but to call it just a friendly with no silverware attached is ludicrous! First of all we don't have international Friendlies in rugby that's for soccer and this game was about two teams trying to achieve much more than win a trophy. Had Ireland won 2013 would always be remembered as the year we beat the All Blacks for the first time, the mediocre performances of the rest of the year would be forgotten and had New Zealand lost 2013 would have been remembered as the year they won the Rugby Championship.... again and not the year where the best team (I left out rugby on purpose) won every single one of their games in a calendar years. To call that game a friendly is insulting to players, fans and rugby in general.

My criticism about the performance of Owens was simply that there is a huge disparity between the way Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere referees rule the game. Look at the 1st Lions Test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ_Nqwxrvns from 6:30 in. You see O'Driscoll give away two quick penalties for not supporting body weight. The commentator then acknowledges that is the SANZAR interpretation and Pollock always referees like this. In some NH quarters it brought with it allegations of bias. However, in the SH we were shocked that that was even a controversial call. It is pretty clear that NH referees simply do not policy or at least do not stringently police staying on your feet at the breakdown. Any SH referee would have given two penalties against O'Driscoll there.

Ireland did like many NH teams and put players on the ground passed the ball carrier. Even just whether or not. Even something like releasing the tackled player is not as stringently enforced in the NH. It isn't really Ireland's fault or Owen's fault -it's just the fact we have laws which can be interpreted in a number of ways. On this tour we have not adapted well to the referee's interpretation.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Now that the emotions have settled, I just have to mention this:

Ireland's first try was not a try and should not have been awarded.
Murray did not have control of the ball, and it bounced back into his hands.

Sometime I am stunned by the decisions these TMOs reach. It's like they are watching a different match.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Now that the emotions have settled, I just have to mention this:

Ireland's first try was not a try and should not have been awarded.
Murray did not have control of the ball, and it bounced back into his hands.

Sometime I am stunned by the decisions these TMOs reach. It's like they are watching a different match.

even the best off them makes mistakes

 

[Bada-Bing!]

No mate it's as plain as day, McGrath is going down and he has Reid in a headlock and Reid does NOT break away from it until he's down on the ground dragged down by McGrath who does not let go thereby collapsing the maul, right there on tv, Jack McGrath no.17 has him, he's off his feet not supporting his own body weight and he keeps hanging on, thats illegal and it brought down the maul. I gave you the time frame and it's as plain as day mate.
1:25;00 to -03, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985d5nBQjOE&list=TLyI2UtGNWgfv2xaOSNEbC1uLOCljj7Y5B
...from the side on view with the touchline camera clear as a bell, McGrath pulls Reid in a headlock on top of him and collapses the maul in front of Owens.
Smart play because he got away with it.
From that field position a penalty is EXACTLY what Ireland wanted. They hadn't looked like getting near the AB tryline in the 2nd half and through cunning and clever gamesmanship by McGrath, he achieved it.
Fair play to him.
It's not McGrath's fault that Sexton failed with the kick.

Who's Reid? There was no Reid playing yesterday; there was a Kieran Read; but certainly no Reid.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Pedant.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pedant.

I made the mistake first but this is on you mate.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Comments like this won't win you any fans. No you didn't deserve the win, and neither did Ireland deserve to lose. But it happened, and that's just part of the Sporting Enigma.

How about a bit humility? The Reason people look up to guys like Mccaw, Carter, Habana etc. is because they stay humble, even in victory.

I feel the Irish fans pain. And I cheered for the green guys the whole 80. Even after 80 minutes I still believed that they would win. But that just didn't happen. I think the entire world was cheering Ireland on (apart from the Kiwis of course). Everyone was probably thinking the same as me, "Come on Ireland, don't let those cocky NZ'ers get another record, they have too many".

Comments like this won't win you many fans either.

I can understand that Irish fans may feel deflated (to put it mildly) and I certainly feel for them. As I stated earlier; I thought they would hold on to win this one. And I was certainly ready to offer my congratulations on a game well played.

But to blatantly state NZ didn't deserve to win probably says more about your attitude towards NZ than anything else Heine.
I get that you didn't want NZ to win, but the FACT is NZ did deserve to win. They played the 80mins.

If Sexton had got his kick, Ireland would have deserved to win because they had taken their opportunties and deservedly won the game.

By stating NZ didn't deserve the win you are intimating that NZ somehow cheated Ireland, or that NZ didn't deserve to score the points they did.
Which is complete bull5h1t.

As I say; your comment probably says more about your attitude to NZers in general than it says about this game.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

In general i am a little embarrassed with how poor SOME of the NZ posters are when we win

I honestly don't think we need to defend our win from Ireland supporters who are obviously gutted, we were gutted in 2007...and 1999...and 1995 and no one was allowed to tell us we shouldn't be gutted let it slide

Good play Ireland...just remember to bring it next time too because i love watching a good game!

 

[Big Ewis]

In general i am a little embarrassed with how poor SOME of the NZ posters are when we win

I honestly don't think we need to defend our win from Ireland supporters who are obviously gutted, we were gutted in 2007...and 1999...and 1995 and no one was allowed to tell us we shouldn't be gutted let it slide

Good play Ireland...just remember to bring it next time too because i love watching a good game!

good post. Especially the part about 2007 and 1999....naahhhhhh, kidding !
And stop kidding yourself btw, you totally would prefer to see NZ annihilations 10 times out of 10 if you could !! YOU FILTHY LIAR !!!!

 

[The Jones Boy]

I made the mistake first but this is on you mate.

Oh....
alright then...


I should really know that too, I am a Kiwi but for some reason I kept thinking of the former Kiwi opening batsmen John Reid.
Must have having a senior moment.
Where is my medication?

 

[InsaneAsylum]

I don't understand the NZ mentality that if the ABs don't thrash their opponent the ref must have been biased against the ABs.

what more do you want? you haven't lost a game in 12 months!

 

[neiliog93]

O'Brien and Ireland "got away with murder" at the breakdown? What, so legally driving through the middle, on your feet with manic intensity is getting away with murder? It's called great rucking. Kiwis are the first to get annoyed when other teams moan about their brilliance at the breakdown by accusing them of cheating. Just accept that, for once, you were legitimately destroyed in this area.

Thankfully Richie McCaw had the class, honesty, objectivity and good grace in victory to admit that Ireland were the better side and deserved to win, unlike many posters here.

Read my previous posts before you reply, I give huge credit to the AB's for having the belief and class to somehow snatch the victory at the death. No other team would have been able to do it.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I don't understand the NZ mentality that if the ABs don't thrash their opponent the ref must have been biased against the ABs.

what more do you want? you haven't lost a game in 12 months!

Have to agree with this comment. There has been some bad refereeing this year, but teams and fans have to get on with it. Nigel Owens has been the best ref this year on the international scene and the standard he set in the SA v NZ and yesterday's game is to be applauded and more international refs should allow games to flow like he does. he got the main decisions right; the first Irish try was given by the TMO.

Re watched the game again and one stat that is pretty amazing, according to John Inverdale, is that this is only the second time in the history of international rugby where a team has come back from a deficit of 19 points or more. So quite a comeback from this AB team.

 

[nickdnz]

WHO HAS SAID THE REFEREE IS BIAS?!?!

I'm sorry but I'm sick of this. How about some members read thge fucking posts of other members - instead of making broad generalizations about what New Zealander's think. I have yet to read a post which says the referee was bias. If there is one it's certainly not a trend. I thought Owen's made several wrong calls - I can point them out with footage if people need..

 

[neiliog93]

Also, to anyone claiming that the fans acted distastefully at the end I'll say a couple of things.

1) Chanting "forward" isn't really distasteful at all. What would you expect? It was a small minority anyway.

2) Booing a kick is never acceptable and they shouldn't have done it. Having said that, the main reason for the booing was the (incorrect) perception that the try shouldn't have been awarded, and particularly the retake. It was much worse the second time. Still no excuse.

For the rest of the game, there was complete silence for all Irish and NZ kicks at goal. That is utterly unique in international rugby. Would a partisan NZ crowd give Quade Cooper or Jonny Sexton such silence for kicks? No, they wouldn't. The one area where Irish rugby has it right is the fans' respect for kickers.

 

[nickdnz]

Also, to anyone claiming that the fans acted distastefully at the end I'll say a couple of things.

1) Chanting "forward" isn't really distasteful at all. What would you expect? It was a small minority anyway.

2) Booing a kick is never acceptable and they shouldn't have done it. Having said that, the main reason for the booing was the (incorrect) perception that the try shouldn't have been awarded, and particularly the retake. It was much worse the second time. Still no excuse.

For the rest of the game, there was complete silence for all Irish and NZ kicks at goal. That is utterly unique in international rugby. Would a partisan NZ crowd give Quade Cooper or Jonny Sexton such silence for kicks? No, they wouldn't. The one area where Irish rugby has it right is the fans' respect for kickers.

For the most part I'd say the Irish crowd was great. Quiet during the haka and during kicks at goal. The fans seemed to be very disappointed at the end, but I get that.

 

[William18]

O'Brien and Ireland "got away with murder" at the breakdown? What, so legally driving through the middle, on your feet with manic intensity is getting away with murder? It's called great rucking. Kiwis are the first to get annoyed when other teams moan about their brilliance at the breakdown by accusing them of cheating. Just accept that, for once, you were legitimately destroyed in this area.

Thankfully Richie McCaw had the class, honesty, objectivity and good grace in victory to admit that Ireland were the better side and deserved to win, unlike many posters here.

Read my previous posts before you reply, I give huge credit to the AB's for having the belief and class to somehow snatch the victory at the death. No other team would have been able to do it.

This is your post translated into my language: "Ireland played better. If you disagree with me it could not be a genuine disagreement. It must be because you lack class, honesty and objectivity."

Why can't we just disagree on an issue because we are two different people and we are allowed to see the world in a different way without being called things? Isn't that what freedom of thought, speech and expression, the tenets of a civilised society, are all about? Did you read my post about why Ireland didn't deserve to win? They scored less points than the All Blacks. At Twickenham last year we deserved to lose. Against South Africa and Australia in 2011 Tri Nations we deserved to lose.

Edit: going back and reading your first post. You say: "Ireland definitely deserved to win the game, they were superior in practically every facet of play for the first hour, and blew the AB's away in the first half unlike any team I've ever seen."

Well, this seems ridiculous to me. If the founders of rugby had decided that it was a 60 minute game then you would have deserved to win. But they didn't. They made it 80 minutes. A couple of questions: if Ireland was so superior for all of the first 60 minutes when then in the 43 minutes between Ireland scoring and the 60th minute did the All Blacks outscore Ireland 10-3? For most of the period in which Ireland was "superior in practically every facet" they could only score 3 points. This tells us one of two things. Either Ireland did not dominate from minute 17 to minute 60 or else they did dominate and couldn't score any points. Sorry but scoring points is part of the game. You don't get 3 bonus points at the end of the game for having a higher share of possession than the opposition.

Yes Ireland had 57% of possession in the 1st half but the All Blacks had about 62% in the second half. Why does the first half dominance count for more? Why is the fact that Ireland dominated possession in the first half mean they deserve to win but when the All Blacks dominate in the second half in a more comprehensive way it means they don't deserve to win?

Why do you think Ireland did deserve to win? Because they were brave, hardworking, played out of their skins? All of this is true. However, in the end it wasn't enough. The All Black's were poor but they did enough. If Coles doesn't make that pass then you deserved to win. End of. Just the same way the Wellington Phoenix didn't deserve to win on Saturday Evening at Allianz Stadium. Wellington had more possession and dominated the second half but conceded a late goal. We deserved to lose because we could not defend until the referee blew that whistle.

One other thing - Richie McCaw is a nice guy and an ambassador for New Zealand. He's telling you what you want to hear. If I was in his position I would have said the same thing.

As for the breakdown, well read my posts. Here is what I said: "I think Ireland's performance was concerning as a NZer. We were absolutely dominated at the breakdown. Mostly this was due to the referee's Northern Hemisphere interpretations when a Southern Hemisphere referee would have blown Ireland off the park. However, we used to be (and McCaw especially) the masters of adapting to suit any referee." You can get the rub of the green from the referee and still be completely dominant the breakdown. The reason Ireland got the rub of the green from the referee was because of how they played, not because of how Owens refereed. The referee was fair but lenient on some areas. Ireland took advantage of that. Taking advantage of the referees has made McCaw one of the greatest players of all time. When I say the referee favoured Ireland I'm not criticising them but rather giving their forward pack the biggest possible praise! It's funny that when Pocock tarted to rival McCaw as one of the best in the world he was called a cheat by some sections of the media. You watch. If Sean O'brien continues playing this well he will be called a cheat too. When that happens celebrate and savour the moment - a number 7 is not world class until the media of other countries calls them a cheat.

No complaint from me about the Irish crowds -clearly the best in the game.

 

[William18]

WHO HAS SAID THE REFEREE IS BIAS?!?!

I'm sorry but I'm sick of this. How about some members read thge fucking posts of other members - instead of making broad generalizations about what New Zealander's think. I have yet to read a post which says the referee was bias. If there is one it's certainly not a trend. I thought Owen's made several wrong calls - I can point them out with footage if people need..

I know. It's just ridiculous and takes away enjoyment from the forum. Sometimes it feels like here you work on eggshells and if you say one thing you are going to spark a major diplomatic incident. Guess what everyone? There are ********s in New Zealand. Guess what else? They are ********s in Ireland, England, everywhere. It is a human problem - not a New Zealand problem. Remember we are all made of the same stuff.

As for the refereeing what I said was that Owens as a NH referee has different interpretations to a SH ref. It is clear from watching rugby and from the reaction of the fans that releasing the tackled player and staying on your feet are not strictly enforced throughout European rugby. That includes club rugby and internationals.

Let's see what our humble and morally superior European friends said after the first Lions test shall we. A win for the Lions too, I shall add.

Firstly, cmac thought Pollock did not allow the Lions to compete because he forced them to stay on their feet:

The Lions won that in the second row, O'Connell and Wyn Jones were immense, and Johnny completely outplayed O'Conner. The injuries for Australia and Pollock not allowing the Lions contest at the breakdown probably evened out in the end. The Lions deserved the win just about!

Secondly, isn't this guy an administrator or something?

That was a disgraceful, incompetent and fairly obviously biased example of refereeing. Lost count of the penalties that any ref with half a eye could see were Lions balls or at least scrums and let them have free reign on our ball.

Bet Pollock's gutted he cant collect his win bonus now.

Thirdly, dullonien can't understand it. That's how we feel watching Owens!

I wasn't impressed with the ref either. Some of his breakdown calls were bizarre to say the least.

Good old Ratsapprentice comes along then and can't understand many of Owen's calls but correctly says he was consistent:

Yeah, he certainly has a weird interpretation.
He is at least consitent though, he was pinging England left right and centre against Argentina too.

Monkeypigeon thinks likewise:

I'm in general agreement with any negativity towards the ref here. There were times when it seemed the Aussies were given an a ridiculous amount of time to release the ball yet the slightest hint of a Lions player going off his feat (even after supporting his weight for a few seconds already) and the whistle is blown. Otherwise I thought he was very fair and anyone accusing him of bias I think is going too far.

Then there were more disparraging comments:
"Probably shouldn't have won the game, but the ref was pretty dire, O'Driscoll had 2 perfectly legal turn overs."
"I think the ref whistled us off the park in the breakdown. We weren't allowed any competition, which really renders our ball winning pack ineffective."
"BOD's steals were absolutely perfect, no other ref in world rugby would have penalised him there. " (Any ref in the Southern Hemisphere).

But more sensible comments: "Think CP was consistant with this the only issue us NH fans/players see on day in day out basis is that supporting weight is not policed the same as in Super Rugby where clear daylight is a phrase I hear all time on ref mike when watching on Sky thus in NH more holding on pens and SH more for no release/not supporting weight I see merit in each way of reffing but as long as consistant then I have no issues players should just adapt to refs style."

So really what am I saying? Well, the reaction of NH posters to Pollock's performance is almost identical to the reaction of New Zealand posters having watched Owens. Some New Zealanders acted like idiots but no-one as bad as SelimNiai who I'm still shaking my head in disbelief about. However, most NH posters got over it put it down to a different interpretation of rugby's open laws. This is how most New Zealanders have also critcised Owens. It is more a sense of disbelief than allegations of bias. The only difference between that thread and this one is that New Zealanders in that thread did not say NH posters lacked humility or were cocky for the way they reacted to the referee. This is contrast to some NH posters in this thread who have made generalisations about NZers.

 

[Chikwa]

I have to agree, South Africa are a better team by ireland with some distance and at home on the high veldt they are a gear better again with their massive vocal crowd to lift them.
That was a critical game as well because if the Bokke could have scored a win with a bonus try and kept the All Blacks without a bonus point they would have won the whole RC competition.
A big ask but they are a mighty strong team and with home advantage against the All blacks who had spent two weeks travelling around the world it was not outside of their prodigious capabilities.
The intensity of that game was a notch higher than the Irish game and for my money that was THE best game of rugby I have ever witnessed.

The Ireland game was a cracking game because Ireland were the underdogs and they came out of the blocks like Usain Bolt and scored a point a minute for the first 19 minutes. But... it was a friendly with no silverware attached.
Yeah a big game for Ireland because it's a chance to break their duck against the AB's and a chance for the AB's to go through a calendar year winning every game on offer. but... no silverware.
A fine game and all credit to Ireland for producing their best performance in living memory.
This was a second place this year though compared to the monumental game in Jo'burg. The Irish flagged in the 2nd half and they were clawed back and then passed at the last post.
The Bokke in comparison came from behind to take the lead and then came from behind again to score 4 tries against the All blacks and take the lead again before the AB's took the game out in the last few minutes. Nothing so far, not the world cup finals, nothing compares to that game in Jo'burg and that is why the Bokke are our oldest and most respected enemy.
They know rugby like we know rugby and when those two teams go toe to toe there's nothing better.

Personally I'm really happy the Boks are so strong at the moment, they are exciting to watch, Du Plessis is the real beast, Albertz is a pocket battleship, Du Preez is under rated for his sly cunning like a fox, Fourie is world class and a champion of the thinking mans rugby, JDV's is in the form of his life as captain, Habana is back to his best and the new kids, Le Roux and Lambie are seriously talented footballers... a strong Bokke team is great for world rugby and perfect for the ultimate rivalry.

Indeed Nz vs the Boks at Ellis Park was a cracking game.Nerve wracking. .I wonder if any old folk had minor heart attacks.I don't feel the International rugby community has given the All Blacks enough credit for that victory which was achieved with ten men playing for 20 minutes in the second half.A hostile south african crowd baying for the blood of the All Blacks. It was a more exciting game to watch because the Boks played attacking rugby and it become a more open game.Of course if you take the Ab's on at their game you are bound to be schooled!