EOYT: Ireland vs Argentina, 24/11/2012

[UlsterRugby2012]

I don't think Marshall should play - he played good against Fiji but he made a lot of errors in the second half. He will probably take over Paddy Wallace in the next season or so, and I think we should let him get a grip in club level rugby before throwing him into the starting Irish team. I personally think he would be under too much pressure at international level right now, and it might knock his confidence if he doesn't play so well.

Cave not even in the 23 is a silly decision. I think I've already said this but Earls 12 Cave 13 would have been a better option. Lets just hope D'arcy has a rare good game.
Cant complain about the rest of the squad though.

 

[Rog]

No it's not. Everyone seems to think teams should be only picked on form that's not the case. Yeah it should have a hand in it and a much larger one than Kidney has let it but experience and combinations are also vital. Even New Zealand don't simply pick the form players. I like Luke Marshall and think he'll be having a fantastic fight in the future for the 12 jersey with Hanrahan but he hasn't even started a H Cup game yet.

Also McFadden hasn't played a single international game at 12 so it's a bit unfair to judge him either way.

Yes good point about picking teams. However no success teams pick players blatantly lacking form. The combination for darcy would be Ryan or Henry to try win the ball back after he has taken it into contact.
for marshals lack of experience he is still playing better than darcy who has provided ireland with three years of below par performances.
Had Murray started a heinken cup game before getting his first cap?

 

[Peat]

No it's not. Everyone seems to think teams should be only picked on form that's not the case. Yeah it should have a hand in it and a much larger one than Kidney has let it but experience and combinations are also vital. Even New Zealand don't simply pick the form players. I like Luke Marshall and think he'll be having a fantastic fight in the future for the 12 jersey with Hanrahan but he hasn't even started a H Cup game yet.

Also McFadden hasn't played a single international game at 12 so it's a bit unfair to judge him either way.

Not that you're wrong about the other factors; but experience is no use without quality, which should rule D'Arcy out. And Ireland have no proven international centre combination that's fit. If you were to go for a combination, I think Marshall and Cave should be the winners, but then you go very light on experience.

Whatever way you look at it, Kidney's picking from bad options. And that's somewhat his own fault.

 

[big ginger 8]

Yes good point about picking teams. However no success teams pick players blatantly lacking form. The combination for darcy would be Ryan or Henry to try win the ball back after he has taken it into contact.
for marshals lack of experience he is still playing better than darcy who has provided ireland with three years of below par performances.
Had Murray started a heinken cup game before getting his first cap?

I never said Kidney was right to pick who he's picked. I think people are exaggerating about D'arcy's lack of form and despite his apparent sudden fraility in defense he has in general been a rock in defence. His defense was one of the reasons we nearly beat N.Z. this summer. I'm not saying he's been great by any means but he has his uses. I don't think Marshall is ready yet, yeah he had a great game against a poor Fiji team. Yes Murray hadnt played H Cup and lucking back was he ready? Should we have maybe waited a bit longer and given him the chance to improve without the constant pressure. Give Marshall time he'll he worth it. Btw I do think Cave should syart.

@Peat when I was talking about combinations I was thinking more in terms of the 10-12 axis.

 

[Peat]

Fair enough point about the 10/12 axis but I don't think 7 tackles 2 missed is the sort of heroism that makes performances like the 2nd test; I really can't agree with calling him a defensive rock.

 

[big ginger 8]

Fair enough point about the 10/12 axis but I don't think 7 tackles 2 missed is the sort of heroism that makes performances like the 2nd test; I really can't agree with calling him a defensive rock.

I'm really phrasing my argument terribly wrong. Should have said he's solid. Where did you get those stats? I thought he made more but than again I forgot he went off after 50 minutes. It's more his actual defending than tackling if you understand me. I actually don't think he should be are starting 12 in general but for this specific match under these circumstances he's the best we've got.

 

[Peat]

I'm really phrasing my argument terribly wrong. Should have said he's solid. Where did you get those stats? I thought he made more but than again I forgot he went off after 50 minutes. It's more his actual defending than tackling if you understand me. I actually don't think he should be are starting 12 in general but for this specific match under these circumstances he's the best we've got.

Espn - so not the acme of accuracy, but not worth dismissing either.

And I can't really agree with solid either; in fact, we're probably best just disagreeing, as I think D'Arcy is a completely busted flush at international level with very few redeeming features (at least under Kidney any way). He makes me happy to have Brad Barritt.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

1. Ayerza
2. Guiñazú
3. Bustos
4. Carizza
5. Farías Cabello
6. Fernández Lobbe
7. Leguizamón
8. Senatore
9. Landajo
10. Sánchez
11. Imhoff
12. Fernández
13. Bosch
14. Camacho
15. Hernández.

The listed team was confirmed. Fernández-Bosch would be a more creative center pairing than Bosch-Tiesi (supposedly...)
Good to see Calacho back, Imhoff keeping his place and Hernández at FB, by far his best position.

 

[psychic duck]

The listed team was confirmed. Fernández-Bosch would be a more creative center pairing than Bosch-Tiesi (supposedly...)
Good to see Calacho back, Imhoff keeping his place and Hernández at FB, by far his best position.

I think the positions #10, #11, #14 and #15 for the Pumas should now be sorted for a while now hopefully. At least all of next year.

I think Hernández is certainly not a bad 10, but other than his punt kicking game he doesn't offer the attack Argentina need. At 15, Argentina still get the best of Hernández's kicking game (he has the best up and unders in the world imo), a very good tackler at the back, whilst Nicolás Sánchez offers a bit more in attack and even more crucially, is a good goal kicker. One thing that wasn't mentioned about Argentina's defeat to France, was that Sánchez looked a very assured goal kicker, something Argentina have been crying out for a while now since Contepomi got the goal kicking yips a few years back and Rodríguez, Bosch and Hernández were all proved to be not of international goal kicking standard. If Argentina had a better goal kicker they would have qualified first in their pool at the RWC beating England, and would have beaten South Africa in Mendoza.

The only issue with the backs now is the centres. Neither Fernández or Bosch is a 13, they are both #10's or #12's. Even Tiesi (who shut down Jamie Roberts/Scott Williams against Wales) offers nothing other than defence. Argentina really needs to find a genuine centre soon. I hope this centre pairing surprise me and don't just do the shovelling the ball along the line aimlessly tactic they did during the Rugby Championship. This pairing created nothing for their wingers during that tournament.

Argentina have more good wingers than they've ever had, this is why I really think they should develop one of them to play centre. I think Phelan's failure to experiment any new alternatives against Italy/France or Stade Français is an error.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Stuff...

Bosch does play 13 for Biarritz, but it's true that he looks a lot better as a first receiver. They probably play him a 13 because of his defence, though I think they would be better off with him at 10 than what they are now with Peyrrelongue... (Tony Manx could comment on this). I think Argentina lose nothing in defence by playing Fernandez instead of Tiesi who, I agree with you, offers little beyond (very) solid defence. The idea of Agulla at 13 has been floating around this forum for a while now, but I don't think Phelan follows us...
The Argentina fans are quite hopeful about Manuel Montero (who just turned 21 three days ago). He certainly has the build to play 13, but I confess I don't know much about him.

Anyway, I think it's the best side Argentina has to offer. It will be a close game.

 

[psychic duck]

Bosch does play 13 for Biarritz, but it's true that he looks a lot better as a first receiver. They probably play him a 13 because of his defence, though I think they would be better off with him at 10 than what they are now with Peyrrelongue... (Tony Manx could comment on this). I think Argentina lose nothing in defence by playing Fernandez instead of Tiesi who, I agree with you, offers little beyond (very) solid defence. The idea of Agulla at 13 has been floating around this forum for a while now, but I don't think Phelan follows us...
The Argentina fans are quite hopeful about Manuel Montero (who just turned 21 three days ago). He certainly has the build to play 13, but I confess I don't know much about him.

Anyway, I think it's the best side Argentina has to offer. It will be a close game.

Montero is a replica Rougerie. Basketball convert I believe, very big winger, the type Argentina have never had before. Playing 13 might be more possible than Agulla, as the UAR would have the entire Vodacom Cup/Americas Championship to experiment it and train him to play there, whilst they would have a lot less time with Agulla.

I'm by no means saying converting him there would work, but with the paucity of centres who aren't converted 10's in Argentina it is worth a try. A player like Ashley Beck would fit perfectly into this Argentine side now ...

Another issue is in the backs. Landajo (the replica Gareth Cooper) does some good scrum half breaks, but he can't pass well (Sanchez received a lot of passes toe height against Wales) and he can't kick (he kicked the ball out on the full which France proceeded to score with a Nyanga run from the next lineout).

It is only a matter of time until Tomás Cubelli breaks through in my opinion, he is a much more complete player and has been on great form the Argentina Jaguars side. But then Phelan always seems to be about 6 months to a year slower on these selection issues than he should be ...

 

[Superalexmarket]

Montero is a replica Rougerie. Basketball convert I believe, very big winger, the type Argentina have never had before. Playing 13 might be more possible than Agulla, as the UAR would have the entire Vodacom Cup/Americas Championship to experiment it and train him to play there, whilst they would have a lot less time with Agulla.

I'm by no means saying converting him there would work, but with the paucity of centres who aren't converted 10's in Argentina it is worth a try. A player like Ashley Beck would fit perfectly into this Argentine side now ...

Another issue is in the backs. Landajo (the replica Gareth Cooper) does some good scrum half breaks, but he can't pass well (Sanchez received a lot of passes toe height against Wales) and he can't kick (he kicked the ball out on the full which France proceeded to score with a Nyanga run from the next lineout).

It is only a matter of time until Tomás Cubelli breaks through in my opinion, he is a much more complete player and has been on great form the Argentina Jaguars side. But then Phelan always seems to be about 6 months to a year slower on these selection issues than he should be ...

This is "The Phanter" Montero.

 

[EMAX1987]

Head-To-Head: Ireland v Argentina

Home advantage has been key throughout the teams' history, with the hosts winning all nine of their (non-neutral) meetings to date.

Played - 12
Ireland Won - 7
Argentina Won - 5
Previous Meetings:

Green = Played in Ireland
Blue = Played in Argentina
Red = Played in neutral soil

Saturday, October 27, 1990 - Tour Match - Ireland 20 Argentina 18, Lansdowne Road - Ireland
Saturday, August 28, 1999 - Tour Match - Ireland 32 Argentina 24, Lansdowne Road - Ireland
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - Rugby World Cup Quarter-Final Play-Off - Argentina 28 Ireland 24, Stade Felix Bollaert - France
Saturday, June 3, 2000 - Summer Test - Argentina 34 Ireland 23, Ferrocaril Oeste - Argentina
Saturday, November 23, 2002 - Autumn Test - Ireland 16 Argentina 7, Lansdowne Road - Ireland
Sunday, October 26, 2003 - Rugby World Cup Pool A - Argentina 15 Ireland 16, Adelaide Oval - Australia
Saturday, November 27, 2004 - Autumn Test - Ireland 21 Argentina 19, Lansdowne Road - Ireland
Saturday, May 26, 2007 - Summer Tour - Argentina 22 Ireland 20, Club Atletico Colon - Argentina
Saturday, June 2, 2007 - Summer Tour - Argentina 16 Ireland 0, Velez Sarsfield - Argentina
Sunday, September 30, 2007 - Rugby World Cup Pool D - Ireland 15 Argentina 30, Parc des Princes - France
Saturday, November 22, 2008 - Autumn Test - Ireland 17 Argentina 3, Croke Park - Ireland
Sunday, November 28, 2010 - Autumn Test - Ireland 29 Argentina 9, Aviva Stadium - ireland



min 3:25 ​

 

[Amobokoboko]

Argentina to win this one.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I think Hernández is certainly not a bad 10, but other than his punt kicking game he doesn't offer the attack Argentina need. At 15, Argentina still get the best of Hernández's kicking game (he has the best up and unders in the world imo), a very good tackler at the back,

Agreed.

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

Should someone give me a link for this game, thanks!!!

 

[rgman]

Hi! Watching the game ESPN+ (...or link removed... mon amie)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No links on the forum, please.

 

[Jockstap]

Perfectly good turnover, who is this ref is he any good?

 

[killer08]

should have worked on the same side after bowes offload, but good play