Ireland v Argentina

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Ah but that's not what you asked, you're right though, about O'Connell and Ross, they deserve to be in there, the jury's still out on Cullen. He's just a less physical and less talented version of O'Connell.

Actually it is what I asked.
So what would be everybody's Ireland 22 based on what we've seen in the November tests?
Based on what we've seen tighthead is still an issue, O'Connell's absence has lead to a poor lineout and none of the selected second rows stepped up and made the 4 or 5 jersey their own. What we've seen is a subpar tight five and Ross, Cullen and O'Connell wold fix that

 

[munstermuffin]

Just an honest question how many spots realistically are up for grabs.

Healy guaranteed start.
Best maybe not.
Buckley isn't 100% certain but not far off.
DOC a certain
POC (if fit) a certain.
Heaslip, Ferris and Wally all guaranteed.
O'Leary and Sexton probably 90% certain.
Kearney, Fitzgearld, BOD and Bowe certain.
D'Arcy probably 90%.

Would that be a fair analysis of way Kidney see'd it.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Just an honest question how many spots realistically are up for grabs.

Healy guaranteed start.
Best maybe not.
Buckley isn't 100% certain but not far off.
DOC a certain
POC (if fit) a certain.
Heaslip, Ferris and Wally all guaranteed.
O'Leary and Sexton probably 90% certain.
Kearney, Fitzgearld, BOD and Bowe certain.
D'Arcy probably 90%.

Would that be a fair analysis of way Kidney see'd it.

Unfortunately this appears to be the case...

 

[shtove]

Actually it is what I asked.
So what would be everybody's Ireland 22 based on what we've seen in the November tests?
Based on what we've seen tighthead is still an issue, O'Connell's absence has lead to a poor lineout and none of the selected second rows stepped up and made the 4 or 5 jersey their own. What we've seen is a subpar tight five and Ross, Cullen and O'Connell wold fix that

Don't know much about the lineout, but I wonder if John Hayes lifting is the key. Not saying he should return, but without the lift maybe POC can't solve the problem alone.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Lads we can predict all we want but facts are (right or wrong) Best/Flannery are our 2 main hookers if fit.
Buckley will always be first choice. Wally will now be 7 for world cup. O'Leary will be back at 9. When fit Kearney will always be at 15 and Luke and Tommy are starting when fit.

Was talking to Keith this morning and he is disappointed at only playing something like 48mins in 4 games. In a way Leinster have got a raw deal as Heaslip will be shattered returning as will D'Arcy and Healy as they've played alot of gametime. Add in they have possibly lost 3 backs for an important H'Cup double header.

But back on Earls subject the impression he is getting is that he's been considered as a13 only and will only be used on wings off bench if needed but while his versatility is a pro for bench it a con for starting which I find unsatisfactory

Do you work for Munster?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Don't know much about the lineout, but I wonder if John Hayes lifting is the key. Not saying he should return, but without the lift maybe POC can't solve the problem alone.

Perhaps it's got something to do with this but by Victor Matfield's admission, Paul O'Connell is the only lineout forward to have gotten the better of him. O'Connell seems to make the right calls all of the time and is brilliant at challenging opponents throws. It seems to me that he intensely studies the opposition lineout to get an advantage. Leo Cullen brings this too but to a lesser degree.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I think Hayes lifting is vital as he can do it alone and is a major asset on restarys etc but ad you have said Paulie is a fanatic of studying opponents and even tries to look out for minor actions before each call etc.

 

[coonor]

Yes Hayes is a great lifter but for the restarts and lineouts the lifting wasn't the problem it was the positioning of the lifter. I think that because O'Connell has always organised the Munster and Ireland Lineout/restarts well O'Callaghan and O'Driscoll havn't ever needed to really take charge of these set pieces and now havn't got these organisational skills at an international level. I think the lineout wasn't opperating well because we had alot of different combonations and no one really took control.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think we also have to consider Best and Cronin (to a lesser extent) have problems with their darts too.
On oppositions throw we simply don't have guys that have done the video work and therefor don't know what is happening.

 

[coonor]

Cronin's dart were poor but he has time to mature and they will get better once he gets more experience. I think the line out the most important set piece for Ireland. Alot of our tries are scored directly from lineouts. They Provide our backs with a very important platform especially with a below par scrum.

 

[Conal]

in my head
id rather never see mod in an ireland shirt again
but toner as the back up second row
mabey touhy if he fully recovers form

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd never say never,
MOD does his job well, not the best option, but not the worst.
Should be behind Toner and (definately) Cullen, and probably Tuohy too (eventually Nagle etc,etc,) - He's a good backup player, like, it's nice to know you've got him in the background in case of injuries and the such

 

[munstermuffin]

I know Cronins darts will improve but I just stating that is part of problem. I really think Ian Nagle has to break in to Munster team and be consistent in big games before he gets an Irish cap

 

[coonor]

I know Cronins darts will improve but I just stating that is part of problem. I really think Ian Nagle has to break in to Munster team and be consistent in big games before he gets an Irish cap

I agree. No point rushing Nagle I think after the world cup will be his chance to break as MOD, Cullen and later on DOC and POC begin to end their international career. Our future tight five looks promising but at the moment its awful.

 

[munstermuffin]

Our locks and backrow is dine for future. Frontrow future is tricky to tell

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I disagree. Cian Healy has his detractors but he's just turned 23, has started a Heineken Cup final, has bags of experience and is now a relatively experienced international. Paddy McAllister is 21 or 22 and playing regularly for Ulster. Brett Wilkinson is 27 and doing pretty well for Connacht. Ireland are well served at loosehead.

Jamie Hagan is playing really well for Connacht in Irelands problem tighthead position. John Andress is getting a ton of experience for Quins. Tony Buckle, Tom Court and Mike Ross have another 3 years ahead of them.

At hooker Rory Best and Sean Cronin have a lot of rugby ahead of them while Damien Varley and Mike Sherry are coming on well too. Then there's Niall Annett of Ulster and Jason Harris Wright further down the track.

Ireland don't have many problems long term in the front row. The positions I'm worried about are second row, scrum half and inside centre.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I agree we have depht but I meant in terms of talent. I'm glad we have scrum coaches at most levels now and that work will show when these guys are ready but now we are mediocre at scrum time.
In lineouts we need our hookers to be consistent etc.
I'm not saying we are doomed or writing us off but as I said it tricky to call and I think we are more progressed with development of locks and backrows

 

[MunsterMan]

Well I've found myself on TRF again, so am going to post my opinion on Irish rugby having only read the 7th page of this thread

Scrum is somewhere between where it was against Argentina and against NZ. Referee absolutely shafted Healy against NZ, and absolutely shafted Roncero at the weekend. Good to see Buckley was obviously taking notes when watching the All Blacks at it though, if he can get away with performances like that regularly we would be sorted.

I think I am going to call for Varley to start, even when Flannery returns. Second best thrower to Flannery. Most effective at the breakdown by a distance, plays like a 7. A big, big man, but not as physical as best. Not as dynamic as Cronin, but probably more dynamic than all the others. I think he ticks all the boxes, might not be as good at certain things as his competitors, but is the most balanced hooker available to us, with the added bonus of being a force at the breakdown.

DOC is indispensible, very underrated asset. Pair him with either POC or Cullen. Micko looked far better than expected against NZ and the Argies despite being blown away by the Saffas, but I'd have the other two ahead of him. Ryan and Toner options as well.

Ferris and Heaslip are the first names down on the team sheet. Finding someone to fill the gap at 7 will be interesting. David Wallace, a huge player for Ireland over the years looks to be in decline, Sean O'Brien is extremely promising but a little raw, and Denis Leamy has the ability to be one of the best on his day but it a 6/8 and not a 7. I'd pick O'Brien, harsh on Wallace but he is the future.

Stringer is about our only decent option at 9. Depressing. I still think Frank Murphy is worth a look but even on the internet he isn't considered an option so I will undoubtedly be laughed at for that suggestion.

Sexton has the jersey secured. Great to see. ROG will hopefully play the odd test between now and 2011, get his 1000 points and be there when we need him. A great servant over the years.

D'arcy was excellent this November, even if he displayed a surprising lack of pace. Jersey is his to lose. Would like to see BOD rested every now and again, if he ever gets injured we are screwed because no one has played 13 in back to back meaningful tests other than him in a good 10 years I'd say.

Back 3, no Kearney please. Murphy could well keep the jersey until the 2011, doesn't deserve to lose it based on Sunday. Bowe is a must pick. I'd pick Earls but would be fine with any Fitz or Trimble.

My 6N team:

1. Healy
2. Varley
3. Buckley
4. O'Callaghan
5. Cullen/O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Stringer
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. O'Driscoll (C)
14. Bowe
15. Murphy

16. Cronin
17. Court
18. Cullen/O'Connell
19. Leamy
20. ?? (O'Leary/Reddan/Boss/Murphy/, whoever is on form, if any are :/ )
21. O'Gara
22. Fitzgerald

Optimistic

 

[munstermuffin]

Good post Munsterman. Would agree with majority of it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Indeed, a good post. Now, my opinion

The front five: There seems to be an opinion in Irish rugby that a dynamic front five should be rampaging around the pitch causing mayhem. This is wrong. Very wrong. The first job of the front five is to secure possession. Anything else is merely a bonus. Good teams are built on Strong scrums and good lineouts. The Italian game is the big one for us at the WC so we must be able to compete here. For this reason our best front row is Ross, Flannery and Court. Two strong scrummagers and a man who can hit his targets at lineout time. If we could get that unit working well it would be a massive advantage to us and would still leave us the option of throwing Buckley and Healy on in the last 30. At hooker Cronin is probably our next best shout. He's been round the squad for a while and is a better thrower than Rory Best, the most important function of any number 2. It might be a bit too early for Varley but if Flannery doesn't recover his old form he'd be a good man to have around the 22.

In the Second row we have three guys who are a class above the rest. There's very little to choose between them but one would expect DOC and Leo to be battling it out for a place beside Paulie come September. I'd bring Toner too due to the fact that he gives you a brilliant option at the lineout.

The Backrow: We have, potentially, a world class back row. Heaslip and Ferris are both outstanding and are pretty much nailed on for their starting spots for the foreseeable future. By the end of the Six nations however, we must have decided what we want to do at seven. As far as I can see we have four options:

David Wallace: A starting Lion and one of my favourite players. As fast as some of our backs and a great worker round the field. Had a poor November however and would seem to be in decline. Was left out of Munster's Heino squad for the NotNot's game
Denis Leamy: Probably our best option at the moment. Strong in contact and dynamic in the loose. Can play pretty much anywhere across the backrow. That said, I wouldn't want to see an Irish team go out with two players in the backrow that have such a tendancy for injury as himself and Ferris. Ferris is the better player too. Hmmmm.
Sean O'Brien: Certainly has the best claim for the shirt come 2015 by the looks of it. Has had an excellent two seasons with Leinster and has all the makings of a very good international 7. Unfortunately he had a poor November and you've got to wonder if there's time left for him to stake a claim.
Shane Jennings: If we really want to compete at the breakdown then this man has to travel to New Zealand. Possibly the most underrated player in Irish rugby. A specialist at rucktime who has yet to shine on the international stage. I'd like to see him go, but would understand if others didn't share my in opinion.

Scrum Half: The less said about this one the better. We have to bring three to New Zealand. Ugh. Stringer to start and O'Leary to feature on the bench. Reddan to travel. Luke Marshall for 2015.

Out-Half: Thank god for Johnny Sexton. His performances this Autumn have shown that he is capable of competing with the best and his emergence as a top number ten is the kick in the arse ROG needed after falling into a pretty deep rut. Sexy to start with ROG as an option for the last 20. No complaints.

Centres: BOD will start of course. And so he should, another good autumn for the world's best 13 (sorry Conrad). The situation inside him seems to be more clear cut than it was at the start of the AI's. D'arcy put in some very good performances and would appear to be getting back to somewhere near his 2004 form. Wallace didn't impress. Other options include Earls, Fitzy and Johne Murphy. An area that looks stronger than it did a few months ago.

The back three: Wow. There are alot of guys looking for these positions. Off the top of my head: Bowe, Earls, Fitzy, J Murphy, G Murphy, Carr, Trimble, Kearney. Bowe will take the 14 jersey which is correct. I'd like to see more of Earls at 11 and Luke at 15 myself. Earls is a top finisher and Luke has a fantastic rugby brain coupled with great footwork and is more reliable than Geordan at the back. These spots will come down to form really.

My team:

15) Fitzgerald
14) Bowe
13) O'Driscoll
12) D'arcy
11) Earls
10) Sexton
9) Stringer
8) Heaslip
7) O'Brien
6) Ferris
5) O'Connell
4) Cullen
3) Ross
2) Flannery
1) Court

16) Cronin
17) Healy
18) Buckley
19) O'Callaghan
20) Leamy
21) O'Leary
22) O'Gara
23) Geordan Murphy.

That's a bloody good 23.