EOYT: Ireland v South Africa, 11/10/2012

[TRF_stormer2010]

Six Leinster frontrowers played yesterday. Healy and van der Merwe at loosehead, Strauss and Cronin at hooker and Ross and Bent at tighthead. That must be some sort of record.

You could even add CJ van der Linde as an ex-Leinsterman.

Speaking of that defensive line... Why were our players not implementing the rush defense?? It looked like we were waiting for them the whole time to come at us.

I think we had them covered in defense pretty much and they never looked like scoring a try so rather hang back and avoid giving away the penalties like we did in the 1st half. A rush defense can be an attacking tool almost but just a little slip in timing and you can give away a costly penalty in such a close game or a sharp back could just hold that pass and then put someone away if the player on the outside comes up too quickly in relation to the player marking the ball carrier.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Has to start against Scotland, don't think he is the be all and end all when playing, but when he is not it is most noticeable.

Nah, I'll keep him on the bench as an impact player. he has done that so well and was influential in lifting our team the last couple of minutes. Willem Alberts did what he does best, and didn't show any reason why he should be replaced.

With that being said, I think that there will be some changes to the bok team to play Scotland. I have a feeling that Jano Vermaak, Arno Botha and Raymond Rhule will all be given a chance to get a cap...

 

[Seaton]

Nah, I'll keep him on the bench as an impact player. he has done that so well and was influential in lifting our team the last couple of minutes. Willem Alberts did what he does best, and didn't show any reason why he should be replaced.

With that being said, I think that there will be some changes to the bok team to play Scotland. I have a feeling that Jano Vermaak, Arno Botha and Raymond Rhule will all be given a chance to get a cap...

Personally wasn't impressed b Alberts, haven't been for the past few months, since June at least.

I'm hoping to see this team from the Boks.

1. Heinke van de Merwe (Beast if fit, flew with the team to Edinburgh)
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandré Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Marcell Coetzee
8. Duane Vermeulen


9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Pat Lambie
11. Raymond Rhule
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Juan de Jongh
14. JP Pietersen
15. Jaco Taute


Unfortunately I expect more of the same in Kirchner, Hougaard and van de Linde.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Nah, I'll keep him on the bench as an impact player. he has done that so well and was influential in lifting our team the last couple of minutes. Willem Alberts did what he does best, and didn't show any reason why he should be replaced.

With that being said, I think that there will be some changes to the bok team to play Scotland. I have a feeling that Jano Vermaak, Arno Botha and Raymond Rhule will all be given a chance to get a cap...

I'd also prefer Coetzee starting and Alberts coming off the bench because I think Coetzee's workrate is invaluable and you need that on the field as long as possible but I understand HM's reasoning; he wants to 'maak hulle sag' with Alberts and bring Coetzee on to mop up. Does that work at test level against all teams though?

I'd not mind one bit if Vermaak got a cap. I think that little extra time he'd afford Lambie might just be what we needed. Botha coming into the mix to rotate with Alberts or Vermeulen (who's had an insanely long season) would be good but I'd be very scared to bring in Rhule now already. Hougaard is a bit off form but still solid whereas I'd be much more comfortable with Mapoe at 11 than Rhule.

A lot depends on the conditions though. If it's dry and the pitch isn't overly heavy then sure bring on Botha and Rhule. A heavy pitch I'd prefer Mapoe or Hougaard's defense and Franco van der Merwe ahead of Kruger at 5.

I still wonder what needs to happen for De Jongh to get the crack at 13 with Taute moving to his prefered position at 15 where he has stated he feels much more comfortable in. He is out of place at 13. Scotland maybe won't expose him as he is a big lad and can handle big direct runners but England might if they can get the backline going like they did against Fiji.

I wonder if Beast will be ready? If not then please start Heinke this time round. I was flabbergasted when I saw CJ start at 1 as I was still thinking Beast would start and thet Heinke and Cilliers would be on the bench.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Personally wasn't impressed b Alberts, haven't been for the past few months, since June at least.

I'm hoping to see this team from the Boks.

1. Heinke van de Merwe (Beast if fit, flew with the team to Edinburgh)
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandré Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Marcell Coetzee
8. Duane Vermeulen


9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Pat Lambie
11. Raymond Rhule
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Juan de Jongh
14. JP Pietersen
15. Jaco Taute


Unfortunately I expect more of the same in Kirchner, Hougaard and van de Linde.

Here's my prediction team for Scotland:

1. Heinke VDM
2. Schalk Brits
3. Pat Cilliers
4. Flip van Der Merwe
5. Juandre Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Arno Botha
9. Jano Vermaak
10. Pat Lambie
11. Raymond Rhule
12. JDV
13. JDJ
14. JP Pietersen
15. Jaco Taute

16. Chiliboy
17. Jannie Du Plessis
18. Beast Mtawarira
19. Eben Etzebeth
20. Marcell Coetzee
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Elton Jantjies
23. Francois Hougaard

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Here's my prediction team for Scotland:

1. Heinke VDM
2. Schalk Brits
3. Pat Cilliers
4. Flip van Der Merwe
5. Juandre Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Arno Botha
9. Jano Vermaak
10. Pat Lambie
11. Raymond Rhule
12. JDV
13. JDJ
14. JP Pietersen
15. Jaco Taute

16. Chiliboy
17. Jannie Du Plessis
18. Beast Mtawarira
19. Eben Etzebeth
20. Marcell Coetzee
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Elton Jantjies
23. Francois Hougaard

I don't think HM would make 8 changes to the starting XV. He hasn't done anything close to 8 to 'better' the team so why make 8 changes to 'weaken' the team? Scotland aren't going to be a game we can afford to rotate half our already heavily depleted starting XV.

 

[SomeOke]

Nah, I'll keep him on the bench as an impact player. he has done that so well and was influential in lifting our team the last couple of minutes. Willem Alberts did what he does best, and didn't show any reason why he should be replaced.

I tend to agree with you here, I feel all of our loosies are fantastic defensively already and although Willem may offer less in terms of the break-down, with our current composition it's more valuable to have Willem's ball carrying. Marcel will get his chance but think our loose trio has finally started to get a little bit of continuity, there's really no reason to fix what isn't broken.

As for the game itself it was a bit of a shocker, but to mean the only real concern was our lack of attacking flair.
The first half we just didn't give ourselves a chance to create anything, giving Ireland the game with all the penalties (all of which were to the letter of the law but some of which I thought were a tad forced). That's still a discipline problem and not something that can't be fixed.

In terms of the general aspects of the game (specifically in parts where rugby was actually being played) I thought we were better for the most part:
- Scrums were fairly even.
- Our line-outs were better.
- Our "bashing" ball carriers made more ground consistently.
- Our maul was good.
- Neither teams back-line could create anything of note.

In the end got to be happy with the win. We have a creative problem at the moment that I just don't see a solution for. Everyone seems to think that we have the players to play a running game but I'm not so sure that we do, at least in the foreseeable future we just don't have that kind of talent ready at the moment.

 

[SomeOke]

I'm also not so sure HM is going to risk wholesale changes against Scotland, at the very least I'd like to see the JdJ-Kirschner-Zane shuffle and perhaps give someone else a chance over Hougie but I think that's probably the extend of the changes we'll see.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

What we don't have ATM in attack is support and a willingness to spread the ball under pressure. That is a mindset issue that we saw at the Stormers as well and we have made huge strides in addressing it though not totally remedying it in the Currie cup. It needs to become a culture though and players need to know their roles as we don't have all round skilled players all over the pitch like NZ does.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm also not so sure HM is going to risk wholesale changes against Scotland, at the very least I'd like to see the JdJ-Kirschner-Zane shuffle and perhaps give someone else a chance over Hougie but I think that's probably the extend of the changes we'll see.

JdJ-Taute-Zane maybe?

That and drop CJ van der Linde who shouldn't even have been on the plane in the first place and leave it at that.

We don't need to bring new guys in; the players playing now ARE the depth we are developing under fire. The core and rest of the depth will be back in injured players returning; Beast, Bismarck, Oosthuizen, Bekker, Burger, Brussow, Goosen, F Steyn and Habana to name the most imporatant.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think HM would make 8 changes to the starting XV. He hasn't done anything close to 8 to 'better' the team so why make 8 changes to 'weaken' the team? Scotland aren't going to be a game we can afford to rotate half our already heavily depleted starting XV.

Yeah you're right... HM won't do that, but man, that would be a good team. I do however think that Jano should get a go. he clears the ball much faster than Ruan and Hougie from rucks and scrum, and that's what our backline need to attack more effectively. Sure Ruan scored a try for us on the weekend and won us the game. But if we had much faster ball to play with, then the scoreline would've been different.

What we don't have ATM in attack is support and a willingness to spread the ball under pressure. That is a mindset issue that we saw at the Stormers as well and we have made huge strides in addressing it though not totally remedying it in the Currie cup. It needs to become a culture though and players need to know their roles as we don't have all round skilled players all over the pitch like NZ does.

you know. Here I'm going to agree with HM. why should the bokke play like the all blacks?? we have never played that way. I for one get bored watching them passing the ball around the whole f-ing time. I'd much rather watch a strategic match where crash balls, hard running, tactical kicking, mauls and those other intricate parts of rugby are being utilized effectively. Half way through the Scotland v NZ game I turned off the tv, I seriously got bored watching the game. Go ahead and slate me for saying that. I don't care. the 2 tests that had my attention the whole game was the Wales/Argentina and Ireland/SA matches.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm not suggesting we play like NZ. And also that we don't run out of our own half unless on the turn-over. At our best we did however have the ball go to the wings in some space though. Havn't seen that for a while though I've always felt it is part of our game. Varying our game and being able to spread the ball as well as taking it up effectively through the middle and kciking it behind into space is what puts your opposition on the back foot as they have to cover all bases.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm not suggesting we play like NZ. And also that we don't run out of our own half unless on the turn-over. At our best we did however have the ball go to the wings in some space though. Havn't seen that for a while though I've always felt it is part of our game. Varying our game and being able to spread the ball as well as taking it up effectively through the middle and kciking it behind into space is what puts your opposition on the back foot as they have to cover all bases.

That won't happen in the wet muddy fields in the NH. If the weather is the same as it was between Scotland vs NZ, maybe we would do that.

 

[nickdnz]

you know. Here I'm going to agree with HM. why should the bokke play like the all blacks?? we have never played that way. I for one get bored watching them passing the ball around the whole f-ing time. I'd much rather watch a strategic match where crash balls, hard running, tactical kicking, mauls and those other intricate parts of rugby are being utilized effectively. Half way through the Scotland v NZ game I turned off the tv, I seriously got bored watching the game. Go ahead and slate me for saying that. I don't care. the 2 tests that had my attention the whole game was the Wales/Argentina and Ireland/SA matches.

Totally agree!!!

I for one am sick of seeing expansive running rugby with lots of tries. What would have made that All Black match 10x better is if we saw an aimless up and under followed by 12 pick and drives in a row, until Scotland gives away a penalty! I'm pretty sure that's why the fans cheers so loudly during penalties, it's what they want!

I think saying "we're South African's, we don't need running rugby just trench warfare" is selling yourselves pretty short. The best SA team during the Super Rugby was the most expansive. It's not like you don't need strong physical forwards and a good kicking game, but to not adapt is to be left behind.

 

[Icemn]

Totally agree!!!

I for one am sick of seeing expansive running rugby with lots of tries. What would have made that All Black match 10x better is if we saw an aimless up and under followed by 12 pick and drives in a row, until Scotland gives away a penalty! I'm pretty sure that's why the fans cheers so loudly during penalties, it's what they want!

I think saying "we're South African's, we don't need running rugby just trench warfare" is selling yourselves pretty short. The best SA team during the Super Rugby was the most expansive. It's not like you don't need strong physical forwards and a good kicking game, but to not adapt is to be left behind.

:lol:

how did Lambie play?

 

[Sker]

I have to agree with Stormer here Hein, we don't have to play like NZ but we should play a balanced game, not a **** game like now. Less up and unders, more kicking to get into their territory (for the line) and then attacking with forwards, finishing with backline.

Our backline is pretty tame atm.

@Ice

Lambie didn't play his usual best, might've been nerves or just not used to starting. He needs sharper kicking to the line, and boy we're really missing F.Steyn/Goosen for our long range attempts!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Totally agree!!!

I for one am sick of seeing expansive running rugby with lots of tries. What would have made that All Black match 10x better is if we saw an aimless up and under followed by 12 pick and drives in a row, until Scotland gives away a penalty! I'm pretty sure that's why the fans cheers so loudly during penalties, it's what they want!

I think saying "we're South African's, we don't need running rugby just trench warfare" is selling yourselves pretty short. The best SA team during the Super Rugby was the most expansive. It's not like you don't need strong physical forwards and a good kicking game, but to not adapt is to be left behind.

Lol, I knew you'd reply to my post.

Thanx for the sarcasm, good fun.

What I meant was, the Boks will never play as expansive as the All Blacks, people should stop trying to force our guys to play like that. It's not going to happen, no matter how much the people want it to be. Our guys are not taught that way from a young age.

A win gives much more satisfaction when the team has beaten it's opposition in the mentality area.

I guess we just see things differently

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

@ Icemn: Lambie played his first Test at fly-half in 18 months. Heyneke Meyer is giving him a chance this Tour, which means 3 matches. At least, that's what he said. It's funny how people (not on TRF, but elsewhere) write off Lambie after 1 match while sticking with Steyn for over a year before wanting to see him dropped. Lambie did not play a good game, which was disappointing, but with the slow distribution of Pienaar, he hardly got time to make a decision. I would like to see Vermaak play against Scotland, just to see how he does with Lambie. We still have 2 Tests left and if Lambie doesn't perform in those two, he did not take his chance. Plain and simple. Until then, I think he deserves credit for the things he did. Yes, he did not dictate the game the way we were hoping he would, but on defense he was strong, he slotted his penalties (only missed long-range efforts) and I have to give Heyneke Meyer credit for giving Lambie 80 minutes against Ireland.

 

[TRF_heineken]

@ Icemn: Lambie played his first Test at fly-half in 18 months. Heyneke Meyer is giving him a chance this Tour, which means 3 matches. At least, that's what he said. It's funny how people (not on TRF, but elsewhere) write off Lambie after 1 match while sticking with Steyn for over a year before wanting to see him dropped. Lambie did not play a good game, which was disappointing, but with the slow distribution of Pienaar, he hardly got time to make a decision. I would like to see Vermaak play against Scotland, just to see how he does with Lambie. We still have 2 Tests left and if Lambie doesn't perform in those two, he did not take his chance. Plain and simple. Until then, I think he deserves credit for the things he did. Yes, he did not dictate the game the way we were hoping he would, but on defense he was strong, he slotted his penalties (only missed long-range efforts) and I have to give Heyneke Meyer credit for giving Lambie 80 minutes against Ireland.

Agree 100% Lambie didn't do anything wrong not to keep his spot in the starting 15.

on another front. Beast Mtawarira is returning to South Africa tonight after medical advisement felt it would be in his best interest to rather go home and rest. Frans Malherbe will be in all likelihood join the Boks...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, I also thought Pienaar was quite poor. The ironic thing is he scored that damned try. His general service (primary role!) and decision making can only be summed up as lazy.