EOYT: England v Australia, 17/11/2012

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd like to see Brown replaced, but not by Wade - Abendanon, Biggs or even Monye.
Wade's not at international level yet, imo. Especially not vs South Africa.

 

[coonor]

I haven't watched any full England games but what's going on with Brown? I thought he had been playing really well this season....

 

[Gavin]

Thought Brown was the on form full-back?

 

[Teh Mite]

That's what Sky tell you to think. Same as they love Ben Youngs and Thomas the Twat.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Maybe now you'll start to understand that test rugby here is not about pride and tradition (no matter how lavishly they slap those words about), its about sponsorship and sales. There are no supporters at Twickenham any longer, only customers.

My heart!

But seriously that just made me sad.insert sadpuppy.jpg

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yep Brown has been hyped for his ability to deliver at domestic level but in my view has done very little to show he can make the step-up to international level. The moments of him playing for england that stand out are always for the wrong reasons -
1. Inability to draw his man and thus give Strettle an easy try against Wales in the six nations this year.
2. His attempt to tackle JP Pietersen against South Africa in one of the tests - he stuck his hand out to try and stop him, breaking his hand and giving an easy try in the process
3. Yesterday (or was it Fiji?) Spilliing the ball in contact when going for the line, just as Waldrom was to do later on.
4. On the five metre line in an attacking position England looked static but at least were keeping the ball. Brown got it, and his inability to use his feet to step defenders, or even to move at all, resulted in him getting tackled backwards and Australia rucked over him for turnover ball.

These were four mistakes that I don't think Foden would have made - he's a smart, skillfull player who has always TAKEN HIS OPPORTUNITIES IN AN ENGLAND SHIRT. I know these examples don't make Brown a terrible player but I haven't been a fan of his since he played for England under Johnson and mistakes like these just make me feel he's not of international calibre. People have criticized Alex Goode as being limited and boring, but in my opinion stick him in a Harlequins shirt with that backline and he'd have more to show than Brown.

In defence of my call for Wade. I know that it's perhaps premature for him - but at the moment in our back division (bench included) we don't have enough players who by their very abilty create more space for everyone else. Look at some of Wasps tries this season - from one end of the field to another, and often just because people are too afraid to step off Wade and give him space to work. At the moment the England backs feel too permanently cramped for space - I believe that we have very skillfull backs but most of them use space well rather than create it. We need that in the form of another outsde back like Wade, or a fly-half like Burns who can come in for Farrell who is so average it hurts.

I hate Stephen Jones (journalist) SO SO much - smug patronising ****. I quote - "It was to be the day when those of us who suspect this England team are willing but profoundly ordinary at the high levels were meant to eat our words......the air of ordinary was powerfully pervasive and you now fear for England for the remainder of this dull autumn" He then goes on to mention the injured "galaxy of talent" without whom Australia still managed to win.

Clearly in his mind England being unable to beat Australia proves beyond refute how ordinary England are, where Wales' defeats against Samoa and Argentina are the result of an unlucky series of events that can happen to any world class team. Can't wait to see his Lions XV - 1. Jones 2. Jones 3. Jones 4. Wyn-Jones etc...

On a less spiteful note... Why can't we please mould our scrum halves into one complete player.... Care's running and eye for space, Simpsons box-kicking, Dickson's speed to the breakdown...Youngs'... oh wait, I'll get back to you on that...

 

[Tony Manx]

Marler, Cole, Robshaw, Waldrom, Barritt, Sharples and Brown also showed they are not international standard against the really top teams and, although Australia played really well, they are not up there with the AB's against whihc we must measure ourselves. Of these players only Marler (and perhaps Sharples who has defensivie frailties and positioning problems to me) has the possibility of improving to a level where he can be considered in the future and am sure that he would not be playing other than for the injury to Corbesiero (is he up to it?) and the dearth of any other challenge!

I thought Flood was pretty good yesterday but, unfortunately, he does not have the pace needed and, to compound his problems, he is not best served by the poor quality of his centres who may be able to defend but only have one attacking option and that it is battering ram style. Tuilangi is like Nonu and Bastereau when they first came on the international scene and whereas Nonu has matured into a good international player, one wonders whether Tuilangi will remain like Bastereau and look how far he is now down the French pcecking order!!

Robshaw - can just about live with him at 7 if I have to and if Armitage is not to be used but as Captain, I do not think so but there again who is there except for Hartley when he recovers?

I think SL needs to take a long look at what his trying to achieve with his selection of some poor (Internationally speaking) players in the backs and also to start kicking up a storm while he may have some influence as to why the RFU are saddlling him with not being able to pick players like Steffan Armitage when they could be available (Top 14 on three week break!). I think Wales (through necessity) will find (as Argentina, Romania and Georgia have) that sending their players to the Top 14 at an early enough age to make a difference, and not just for a pension, can bring benefit to their international teams!

Incidentally, I agree with Tehmite - there is a surprise - in one respect being that England rugby is not about tradition, pride or anything other than money, money money - and also that Tuilangi scored, and that the pass for Cummings was marignal enough to not be called!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cole?!
Pull the other one, he's probably the best tighthead in the world.

 

[j'nuh]

and perhaps Sharples who has defensivie frailties and positioning problems to me

He's a right winger and got put on the left. I think this changes a lot: the awareness of the space around you, kicking has to go in-field because you're right-footed, the shoulder used to go into tackles etc.

Another reason to have called up JSD: a genuine left-winger who is clearly good enough to make England.

Besides that, Robshaw and Cole are great players and I can live with Brown at fullback.

Barritt is a decent player, but doesn't work in a partnership with Tuilagi. Waldrom has been in better form in the past, and when in form, he's a very good player. I have no defense for Marler - maybe one day, but he's going to have to do a lot to convince people he can scrummage now.

 

[Peat]

No offence Tony, but that includes some of the dumbest things I've heard all day about this game. A single day does not make or break internationals, particularly in the case of Cole who has already completely proved himself many times over.

I like how people are lining up to take a strip out of Mike Brown, that would be the same Mike Brown who hasn't had 15 minutes in his favoured position under Lancaster?

Would we be saying all this if Waldrom didn't have fingers like sausages?

I'm not wildly happy about that match, but it wasn't a massacre or an embarrassment. I'd rather wait until I've seen a few more matches before getting all gloomy again.

 

[Teh Mite]

Brown has had plenty of time to cost games against both Wales and South Africa, and yesterday his most remarkable moment was blatant cheating looking for a penalty, Klingsman style. Alex Goode has been near to Foden so far and must be further up the pecking order.

Lancaster may not be the problem, but its the same old rubbish with England.

 

[TNT88]

That Tuilagi try wasn't even marginal - he was still sliding when he reached out, it's only a "double movement" if you stop and then start again, that was momentum.

There isn't even a question of whether or not it was double movement, because the laws specifically state that a tackled player is allowed to reach out and score a try.

(d) Momentum try. If an attacking player with the ball is tackled short of the goal line but theplayer’s momentum carries the player in a continuous movement along the ground into the
opponents’ in-goal, and the player is first to ground the ball, a try is scored.


(e) Tackled near the goal line. If a player is tackled near to the opponents’ goal line so that
this player can immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line, a try is
scored.


(f) In this situation, defending players who are on their feet may legally prevent the try by

To be caught for not releasing close to the try line, you would have to get back to your feet, or possibly start crawling/rolling towards the try line before putting it down. But any lunge or extra movement to reach out and score is fine.

Funny case of Steve Walsh/and co. getting it wrong in 2010:

 

[Patchey]

Clive Woodward weighed in earlier and suggested that Stuart Lancaster should have done more to get the players to get the penalty decisions rights. Isn't that a bit like saying a coach should also drill his players to pass backwards? Unless you have a massive dominance at the scrum (see the England v Ireland match earlier this year) or very little time left kickable penalties should always be sent postwards not into touch.

Not exactly an original opinion I know but I am still a little stunned that a group of experienced professional players forgot one of the most basic tactical rules of the game.

 

[j'nuh]

Anyone else fancy the idea of Tuilagi playing more rugby on the wing? Perhaps not officially on the teamsheet, but instead just shifting him out regularly onto the wing when lining up in attack. We'll give him more one-on-one opportunities, and then we can have better linkmen in midfield. Would like the idea of Tuilagi and Joseph/May interchanging on the wing and in the centers.

I'm not wildly happy about that match, but it wasn't a massacre or an embarrassment. I'd rather wait until I've seen a few more matches before getting all gloomy again.

But it's not just on one game. The media were knee-jerk in their treatment towards Lancaster. The world cup was an embarrassment and the six nations was less of an embarrassment, and therefore the media treated him and his coaching team as heroes. But the reality is that the competition wasn't tough and South Africa in particular are below where they used to be, and despite all this, England haven't played anywhere near to their potential. And the coaching team are showing signs of a similar conservatism that MJ was guilty of.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yeah sorry Tony, but what? Cole Robshaw and Sharples are quality and should be at the heart of our team going forward! As for Cole, even Jonathan Davies picked him as his Lions starting tighthead! Even Waldrom is a good player, I just don't think he's in great form and shouldn't necessarily be the first choice.

I think that at present we're playing a number of players who are pretty good but not amazing. For me, Wood brings more to the party than Tom Johnson, yet I think it's going to take a lot for these coaches to drop Johnson - he hasn't appeared to do much wrong, I just think there are better players out there. I would desperately like to see 6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Morgan

As for Tuilagi, the Times rated him as our worst back(4/10) - WHAT!? The midfield dynamic has yet to work properly but Tuilagi has always carried hard and been the most threatening and committed player. I think that when Jonathan Joseph returns there may be a future for him to play with Tuilagi inside him at 12. However, those such experimentations depend on having the right players available at 13, and arn't unqualifiedly good. For me, we need an entirely new attacking approach and that includes new coaches.

I saw a BBC sport news post the other day which said Farrell and Catt to be free to coach with lions - I hope for all our sakes that those two aren't allowed anywhere near the Lions. Shaun Edwards will do for the defence coach and....somebody else for attack.

 

[Peat]

But it's not just on one game. The media were knee-jerk in their treatment towards Lancaster. The world cup was an embarrassment and the six nations was less of an embarrassment, and therefore the media treated him and his coaching team as heroes. But the reality is that the competition wasn't tough and South Africa in particular are below where they used to be, and despite all this, England haven't played anywhere near to their potential. And the coaching team are showing signs of a similar conservatism that MJ was guilty of.

I believe a look at my posting record would say that I have been heavily critical of Lancaster from the beginning - and it's possibly that fact which is making me nice to him now. But the guy deserves judging on the full window and a chance to show he's learnt.

I'm fully expecting it to go wrong btw.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I have no problem with Lancaster so far - some decisions may appear conservative such as on the selection front but in other areas he's quickly brought in players whose good form should have seen them get capped a dozen times or more under Martin Johnson. I think his greatest problem is with some of his coaches. With Lancaster so far we are nowhere near having soem of the selection complaints that other natiosn have or have had - such as the perserverance with Priestland for Wales, D'arcy for Ireland, or whatever - all Lancasters choics made sufficient sense, even if there are a few marginal cases such as Tom Waldrom and Tom Johnson. I have confidence that he'll wield the axe when needs be.

We were poor on saturday but I feel on another day we would have got it right. For me its far from a systemic failure, but we need to refresh some of our approaches particularly with regards to our attacking game. Those people who still think the lack of a true 7 is our biggest problem clearly haven't watched our last 8 games under Lancaster - Australia was the only game we really struggled.

I back Robshaws decision to go for corner rather than post, justt as he backed his players. If Waldrom hadn't lost control I feel sure that someone else would have scored or that Australia under pressure would have continued to concedepenalties and in more kicable positions ( I felt the first penalty was too near the touchline to have any real ocnfidence that Flood would have kicked it over. Another reason why I supported Robshas decision) By extension I feel Woodwards criticism of Lancaster was non-sensical. Clearly Lancaster trusts Robshawto make the right decisions, as he should. Its therefore not Lancasters responsibility to drum in to Robshaw what decisions to make and when. Good captains make their own decisions confidently, and Robshaw did. I won't hear any crap about Robshaw not being a good captain.

 

[Tony Manx]

Sorry....not sure how Cole got into my comments aboout not beung international class and do agree that he is worthy of his place!

 

[mstar]

Come on Henry lay off Tom Johnson he is the form number 6 in the premiership.
Sure he doesn't have the physicality of Haskell/Wood but he makes up for it in his rugby smarts/handling ability and speed around the park, which worked a treat against the big lumps of the back row of SA (Tom always got to the breakdown quicker to help robshaw etc).

But i agree with you, lets put Wood in and see what he brings to the party. When we had Haskell he was immense the physicality he brought got us a draw he made 28 tackles! So bringing in Haskell or Wood i be happy with. BUt i still think Tom Johnson has a role to play in the team.

Also guys lay off Robshaw at number 7, his fetching in the first and second tests was great! Yes he isn't a pocock etc but he is good enough in the position i remember at the end of the 2nd match Steve Walsh the referee put his hand on Robshaw "some unbelievable fetching mate, kept your team in the game".

BUt i agree

Next game we need changes.

 

[Teh Mite]