England World Cup Squad

[jordiev]

Hopefully Saturday was just the start of what he can become.

Itoje coming back to form, Martin and Ollie Chessum offer a set of locks rhay could develop in to a strong group...

Add one more in...and hopefully develop nicely.

It'll be interesting how they go with 6. A tall 6 or more pacy.

Ted Hill out for months now so he won't be anywhere near if he ever was going to be.

Personally I think curry and earl make the most sense. The pair of them dominated the breakdown, lawes contributed massively but a true 8 in the mould of mercer who is pretty well rounded could be a special combination.

 

[Reiser99]

Those are some shocking stats from the semi: 93% of possession kicked, no line breaks, 73 seconds in the Bok 22 and slowest ruck speed of the entire tournament. The ends very nearly justified the means, but still.

Yeah I still like 2019 the semi final was the exception, not the rule. Certainly there was nothing attacking wise that gave me any confidence. It was entirely kicking to compete and hope the Boks made a mistake.

 

[Reiser99]

Apparently Paul Gustard in talks with England

If it's true, what has he actually achieved recently? He was mutinied out of Quins and they went on to win the ***le after ditching his tactics. He then went to Benetton for a year and is now at Stade Francais as defence coach. Have they improved under him? What is he actually going to bring?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Those are some shocking stats from the semi: 93% of possession kicked, no line breaks, 73 seconds in the Bok 22 and slowest ruck speed of the entire tournament. The ends very nearly justified the means, but still.

That's what I thought. As much as England forced a lot of mistakes from the Boks, the underlying weaknesses were still there. But as another poster said on here it was bringing them down to their level. And to think it almost worked.

 

[BPM]

Saturday was very poor tactically and we lost the game due to those tactics. So while we defended well for a change, if that is the New England then count me out as our attacking play was terrible, our tactics poor and our captain a bit of a prick.

I am worried that SB will continue with this terrible set of tactics and probably keep on some of the terrible players as well.

I don't like the tactics, but they took us to within 3mins and 1 point of beating a far superior team.

Sure they were ugly and unimaginative but I don't see how you can say that they were 'very poor'. They were the right tactics for the opposition and the conditions. But for Billy and our scrum imploding, we'd have won with that 'terrible set of tactics'.

I really hope that we have more to bring moving forward as I certainly don't want to see that kind of gameplan on a regular basis, but I can totally understand why we chose those tactics last weekend,

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If it's true, what has he actually achieved recently? He was mutinied out of Quins and they went on to win the ***le after ditching his tactics. He then went to Benetton for a year and is now at Stade Francais as defence coach. Have they improved under him? What is he actually going to bring?

Stade defence went from conceding 651 points to 480 and currently have the best defensive start this season

Don't confused a poor head coach = a poor coach

 

[Reiser99]

Stade defence went from conceding 651 points to 480 and currently have the best defensive start this season

Don't confused a poor head coach = a poor coach

Fair enough. Though as others have said, if true it's a very crowded coaching team. Jones, especially at the end had a very chaotic coaching setup. We don't need that again. I'd hope that any appointments are part of a clear long term plan and not just scrabbling around trying to find who is available and would fit. We assumed the Leicester appointments were in general temporary as Borthwick was familiar with them just for the WC (although Leicester did make the RFU pay an arm and a leg). However, now the coaches should reflect what Borthwick wants to achieve with England and be able to implement that vision.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Fair enough. Though as others have said, if true it's a very crowded coaching team. Jones, especially at the end had a very chaotic coaching setup. We don't need that again. I'd hope that any appointments are part of a clear long term plan and not just scrabbling around trying to find who is available and would fit. We assumed the Leicester appointments were in general temporary as Borthwick was familiar with them just for the WC (although Leicester did make the RFU pay an arm and a leg). However, now the coaches should reflect what Borthwick wants to achieve with England and be able to implement that vision.

I mean Sinfield out and Gustard in leaves it the same as it was before

As Olyy said I think Jones was coming in as a general coach

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't like the tactics, but they took us to within 3mins and 1 point of beating a far superior team.

Sure they were ugly and unimaginative but I don't see how you can say that they were 'very poor'. They were the right tactics for the opposition and the conditions. But for Billy and our scrum imploding, we'd have won with that 'terrible set of tactics'.

I really hope that we have more to bring moving forward as I certainly don't want to see that kind of gameplan on a regular basis, but I can totally understand why we chose those tactics last weekend,

The tactics ultimately don't win us anything though. The first big team we faced and they beat us. You can't just kick the ball over and over and not expect it to eventually come back with interest.

On another day , those same tactics could see us loosing by 20 points but they will never have us winning by that because you can't win without the ball. The second half was just a matter of time before the springboks scored and if they had started pollard the score wouldn't have been that close.

For me, if you had a monster set of defenders and a brilliant set piece then you can play that style of rugby as long as you are lethal and accurate in their 22 but we don't and we arn't. So trying to be 'that team' just won't work. If SB continues with this style of rugby we'll be 5 in the 6 nations again as you need balance in the tactics which we haven't shown yet.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The other argument is you can't win at the top level on just attack either.
In theory once you build a pack you can build a attack.

I mean how many attacking teams win trophies all recent trophy winners?
Toulouse, France, Ireland, La Rochelle, SA, Stormers, NZ, Saracens, Leicester, Munster, Leinster.

They all have top packs and top defence. Building an attack without it will just make us another Scotland or something.

Borthwick says he wants to make England a tough team to beat, and if they can defend like they did v SA constantly then they will become a tough team to beat, he then needs to add attack.

He did that with Leicester, BUT the trouble is the RFU didn't allow him enough time to see if he actually knows how to build that attack (or allow other coaches too). So it is a concern as he has no track record of any attacking rugby.

4 minutes away from a final after the last 2 years, even with an easier pathway is still pleasing and I can't really fault it. Attacking rugby wouldn't have got us any further this year.

Six nations will be the big one in seeing if Borthwick evolve his rugby I feel

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't like the tactics, but they took us to within 3mins and 1 point of beating a far superior team.

Sure they were ugly and unimaginative but I don't see how you can say that they were 'very poor'. They were the right tactics for the opposition and the conditions. But for Billy and our scrum imploding, we'd have won with that 'terrible set of tactics'.

I really hope that we have more to bring moving forward as I certainly don't want to see that kind of gameplan on a regular basis, but I can totally understand why we chose those tactics last weekend,

Kicking only won't work 8 / 10 times, but if a tactic is right for a particular set of conditions or opposition then that's fine by me. If executed well.

Times makes the point today that with our scrum under the cosh and on the wrong side of the ref we continued to kick high, short and contestable, which in those conditions was only likely to lead to more…..scrums. Saying that we'd have been better off going deep and forcing the Boks to come back at us.

 

[LIONSxv]

Personally I think curry and earl make the most sense. The pair of them dominated the breakdown, lawes contributed massively but a true 8 in the mould of mercer who is pretty well rounded could be a special combination.

Earl, Curry, Mercer is a very talented trio. Earl for his carrying and sheer athleticism. Curry for tackling and ruck work. Mercer for his all court game + line out option

NZ/Ire have proved you don't need A19/20 stone n8 to make it work

If we did go down that route you would need a hooker that could carry and a heavy TKH lock aka Martin. Itoje/Chessum and George at hooker does not work for me

 

[BrokenWing]

NZ/Ire have proved you don't need A19/20 stone n8 to make it work

And England have proved that just being 19/20 stone isn't the be all and end all.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

How the England squad could look at the 2027 Rugby World Cup

Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher take a look at who England head coach Steve Borthwick may pick for the 2024 Six Nations and beyond

www.thetimes.co.uk

How the England squad could look at the 2027 Rugby World Cup.

With a number of players likely to ride off into the sunset after the tournament in France, Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher take a look at who could star next time.

Now that England's bid to lift the Webb Ellis Cup in France has ended with the uplifting — although ultimately losing — performance in the semi-finals against South Africa, we look at where the team go from here, how they might line up in next year's Six Nations, and what the make-up of the side who compete at the 2027 World Cup in Australia might be.

Back three

Gloucester's Jonny May has said he thinks this has been his last tour with England, so he needs to be replaced on the wing. Anthony Watson, when fit, will surely do that. He is a player Steve Borthwick, the head coach, admires deeply and he can be world-class. He's still only 29, so has much left to give. Saracens' Elliot Daly, at 31, has time on the clock still. Freddie Steward, the Leicester Tiger, will be around for a decade, you suspect, so the full back position is safe, but he needs to find ways of becoming a better second playmaker. Max Malins, who has moved from Saracens to Bristol Bears, found himself on the fringes of the World Cup squad but will have more chances to impress in the Gallagher Premiership — as will Ollie Hassell-Collins, now at Leicester after London Irish folded, Cadan Murley, from Harlequins, and Joe Cokanasiga at Bath. Cassius Cleaves, the Quins 20-year-old, is admired as a raw talent. Joe Carpenter and Tom Roebuck are good young talents at Sale Sharks too.


The fascinating one is Henry Arundell. He is eligible for the Six Nations next year, but will he be picked? He is not available beyond that because he has joined a French club. Arundell is only 20, and could easily choose to stay at Racing 92 for longer than the year he has signed up for. Why not lap up everything he can in Paris and then return a world-class player for the 2025 Lions tour and 2027 World Cup?


Centres
It will be all change in midfield soon. Manu Tuilagi, of Sale, has not made his future intentions clear, but you cannot see him trucking on until 2027, or even making the 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia aged 34. Does Borthwick therefore thank him profusely for his 12 years of service, most of which came when he was battling desperately to be fit, and move Tuilagi on? There is no direct replacement in the system, so England will have to change the way they play.

Joe Marchant will become ineligible for selection on Saturday morning, after the bronze-medal match against Argentina, and will stay in Paris as he joins Stade Français. With him, a Borthwick favourite, gone you suspect Dan Kelly from Leicester could team up well with Bath's Ollie Lawrence in the centre. Will Joseph, the brother of Jonathan, now at Harlequins after the demise of London Irish, is one to monitor closely too. At 21 he has a lot of growth potential.

Tommy Freeman, the Northampton Saints wing, could be converted to a big 6ft 2in, 16st outside centre, but fans of more free-flowing rugby would put forward his team-mate Fraser Dingwall. Is he physical enough for Test rugby, though? Henry Slade was the big omission from this World Cup squad. It would not be a surprise if he returned, but he may choose to play one more year at Exeter Chiefs then take a fat contract in France like a lot of his Devon team-mates did this summer. Daly, generally used in the back three for England, can play at outside centre.

Fly halves
Not much needs to, or will, change here. Owen Farrell, now 32, will not be going anywhere, and nor will George Ford, who is still only 30. Expect the Saracen to stay as England captain for as long as he is around. Borthwick has spent much of this World Cup paying incredibly glowing tributes to his skipper, quite a lot of the time unprompted. Ford, now at Sale, is such a good player and will hit 100 caps in ten Tests, but you still feel he will always play second fiddle to Farrell in the eyes of England coaches.

Marcus Smith is the interesting case study for the incoming hybrid contracts. When he was on the verge of leaving for Racing 92, Smith was convinced to stay at Harlequins by Borthwick, who told him he would not be frozen out of the team behind Ford and Farrell. That was true, as Smith discovered in his new full back role, but how long he remains there is interesting. Does Borthwick trust him as a No 10? If he falls out of the team, does Smith, who turns 25 in February, take the money and experience in France while he is still young? Fin Smith, of Northampton, is admired but far back in the pecking order.

Scrum halves
England need to find two new No 9s imminently. While Ben Youngs has not officially retired from Test duty, he is now 34 and has not found a way into the team during this World Cup. He and the 36-year-old Danny Care — who has only a year left on his Harlequins contract — have been incredible servants for England but now must be moved on.

The good news for Borthwick is that he has ready-made options in the form of Jack van Poortvliet, who would have made this World Cup had he not injured his ankle, and Raffi Quirke of Sale. Quirke needs to get back into the starting line-up at his club, having fallen behind Gus Warr last year, and play with a consistent fly half, but can grow into a quick, dynamic replacement for Care, with Van Poortvliet more in the Youngs mould. Those two plus Alex Mitchell, the Northampton Saints scrum half who went from outside the squad to starting, should make a fine trio for many years.



Front row
Borthwick expressed his frustration at the development of young outside backs during this World Cup. He would have felt it even more acutely with how young English tight-five forwards have been treated. The financial issues at clubs mean many promising props have been holding tackle bags instead of going out on loan and playing rugby.

Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath) and Joe Heyes (Leicester) are likely to be the Six Nations tight-heads; Ellis Genge (Bristol), Bevan Rodd (Sale) and perhaps Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester) the loose-heads. Behind them is a gap in the depth chart. England recently held their first bespoke training camp for young tight-five forwards with the aim of boosting the development of a promising generation.

Tarek Haffar is a loose-head who was snapped up by Northampton Saints when London Irish went bust. He has been likened in the academy world to Ox Nché, but is faster and more dynamic, which sounds exciting. He has already tasted top-flight rugby. Also on the loose-head side, we have seen Fin Baxter make an impact for Harlequins. On the tight-head side, Gloucester's Afolabi Fasogbon is another who came through the London Irish ranks and the 6ft 3in prop is rated as a major prospect. Leicester's Tim Hoyt and Asher Opoku-Fordjour, of Sale, are also highly regarded by age-group coaches.

Theo Dan needs to develop his set piece to inherit the hooker's jersey from Saracens team-mate Jamie George and Sale's Luke Cowan-Dickie but he has all the other qualities required to make it. Sam Riley, at Harlequins, is coming through and on the wider radar is Kepu Tuipulotu, a Harrow schoolboy whose sister is a star of the Wales women's team.

Second row
England will lose David Ribbans to Toulon but otherwise their immediate options in the second row remain strong, with Leicester's George Martin having announced himself in the World Cup semi-final. Sale's Jonny Hill will come back into contention. Longer term, there is the prospect of a Chessum double act. Ollie Chessum has established himself rapidly in the squad while his young brother, Lewis, recently captained England Under-20 and is even taller at 6ft 7in and 19st. He was joined in the squad last season by Robert Carmichael, who is bigger still. All three are on the books at Leicester.

Back row
Chandler Cunningham-South, snapped up by Harlequins from London Irish, played some second row for England Under-20 but he is a No 8 with a future, potentially as a long-term replacement for Saracens' Billy Vunipola. England are well placed for loose forwards, with Tom Willis, of Saracens, and Tom Pearson, of Northampton, having narrowly missed out on World Cup selection. Saracens' Ben Earl has been one of their best players in France. Martin and Ollie Chessum can both play blind-side flanker or lock. Alfie Barbeary, for so long considered a prospect, is back playing for Bath again after a run of injuries and he will catch the eye if he can stay fit. Guy Pepper has played for Newcastle Falcons as a teenager and was described by one coach as being "Mark Wilson 2.0" — rock hard, strong and physical.

Coaches
There are suggestions that the defence coach Kevin Sinfield may move on and go back to rugby league. The arrival of the Irishman Felix Jones, who could be a double World Cup winner by the time he comes from the Springboks in January, will soften that blow. He has coached the attack and the defence of the world's leading team. Richard Wigglesworth, the attack coach, and Tom Harrison, the scrum coach, should stay and develop.

 

[will311293]

So reviewing the squad i think we see a fair amount of upheaval and players to drop out/head to France.

Forwards
Dan Cole (Retire?)
Joe Marler (Retire?)
Will Stuart
Ellis Genge
Kyle Sinckler (France - Ineligibe?)
Bevan Rodd
Jamie George
Theo Dan
Jack Walker
George Martin
Courtney Lawes (Retired)
Maro Itoje
David Ribbans (France -Ineligibe)
Ollie Chessum
Ben Earl
Tom Curry
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola (France - Ineligibe?)
Jack Willis (France - Ineligibe)
Lewis Ludlham

Backs
Ben Youngs (Retire?)
Danny Care (Retire?)
Alex Mitchell
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Marcus Smith
Manu Tuilagi (Retire?)
Joe Marchant (France - Ineligible)
Ollie Lawrence
Elliot Daly (France - Ineligibe?)
Jonny May (Retire?)
Max Malins
Freddie Steward

I am making a few Assumptions but could see the likes of Billy V, Daly, Manu, Sinckler cashing in for big french contracts. I also feel Marler/Cole/Youngs/Care/May will most likely retire from international rugby too.

So below i've detailed my revised squad, with a stop gap in some positions, with a long term option provided.

Forwards
Painter/Fasogbon
West/Opoku-Fordjour
Will Stuart
Ellis Genge
Heyes
Bevan Rodd
Jamie George
Theo Dan
Jack Walker
George Martin
Launchbury/Coles
Maro Itoje
Isiekwe/Kpoku
Ollie Chessum
Ben Earl
Tom Curry
Sam Underhill
T Willis/Mercer
Pearson/Cunningham-South
Lewis Ludlham

Backs
Raffi Quirke
Jack Van Poortvliet
Alex Mitchell
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Marcus Smith
Luke Northmore
Dan Kelly
Ollie Lawrence
Caden Murley
Tommy Freeman
Max Malins
Freddie Steward

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Quirke needs to get back into the starting line-up at his club, having fallen behind Gus Warr last year

I get that he's talking about looking for a Care-esque replacement but it's so silly that he (and multiple others) say things like "Quirke could be back playing for England if only he could overtake....the young English 9 that is starting ahead of him. His name? No idea. Quirke Quirke Quirke!"

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Alex Lowe's team for the 2024 Six Nations
1. Genge 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Martin 6. Chessum 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Mitchell 10. Farrell 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Daly. 14, Steward 15. Watson

Will Kelleher's team for the 2024 Six Nations
1. Genge 2. Cowan - Dickie 3. Sinckler 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Martin 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Mitchell 10. Farrell 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Daly 14. Watson 15. Steward

Alex Lowe's team for the 2027 World Cup
1. Haffar 2. Dan 3. Fasogbon 4. Itoje 5. Martin 6. Chessum 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Quirke 10. Smith 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Joseph 14. Cleaves 15. Steward

Will Kelleher's team for the 2027 World Cup
1. Genge 2. Dan 3 Sinckler 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Martin 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Quirke 10. Smith 11. Arundel 12. Lawrence 13. Joseph 14. Watson 15. Steward

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

"Tarek Haffar is a loose-head who was snapped up by Northampton Saints when London Irish went bust. He has been likened in the academy world to Ox Nché, but is faster and more dynamic, which sounds exciting." - for a 22 year old prop with only 2 starts at Prem cup level that is such a big hyping that isn't needed lol

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kpoku

Kpoku's an interesting one, no love lost between him and Saracens from interviews after he asked for a (2 year) early release - I wouldn't be surprised if he just stays in France for the rest of his career, apparently he's fluent in French (both parents from the Congo)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Kpoku's an interesting one, no love lost between him and Saracens from interviews after he asked for a (2 year) early release - I wouldn't be surprised if he just stays in France for the rest of his career, apparently he's fluent in French (both parents from the Congo)

Will be like 26 by the time he is qualified and should be able to play for France by the next World Cup.

If he is enjoying France might aswell stay, make better pay and if he's good enough France will look at him