England World Cup Squad

[Geordie]

Alex Lowe's team for the 2024 Six Nations
1. Genge 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Martin 6. Chessum 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Mitchell 10. Farrell 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Daly. 14, Steward 15. Watson

Will Kelleher's team for the 2024 Six Nations
1. Genge 2. Cowan - Dickie 3. Sinckler 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Martin 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Mitchell 10. Farrell 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Daly 14. Watson 15. Steward

Alex Lowe's team for the 2027 World Cup
1. Haffar 2. Dan 3. Fasogbon 4. Itoje 5. Martin 6. Chessum 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Quirke 10. Smith 11. Arundell 12. Lawrence 13. Joseph 14. Cleaves 15. Steward

Will Kelleher's team for the 2027 World Cup
1. Genge 2. Dan 3 Sinckler 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Martin 7. Curry 8. Earl 9. Quirke 10. Smith 11. Arundel 12. Lawrence 13. Joseph 14. Watson 15. Steward

Some of those are actually laughable....particularly the 2027 ones

 

[LIONSxv]

And England have proved that just being 19/20 stone isn't the be all and end all.

100%

 

[Geordie]

The other argument is you can't win at the top level on just attack either.
In theory once you build a pack you can build a attack.

I mean how many attacking teams win trophies all recent trophy winners?
Toulouse, France, Ireland, La Rochelle, SA, Stormers, NZ, Saracens, Leicester, Munster, Leinster.

They all have top packs and top defence. Building an attack without it will just make us another Scotland or something.

Borthwick says he wants to make England a tough team to beat, and if they can defend like they did v SA constantly then they will become a tough team to beat, he then needs to add attack.

He did that with Leicester, BUT the trouble is the RFU didn't allow him enough time to see if he actually knows how to build that attack (or allow other coaches too). So it is a concern as he has no track record of any attacking rugby.

4 minutes away from a final after the last 2 years, even with an easier pathway is still pleasing and I can't really fault it. Attacking rugby wouldn't have got us any further this year.

Six nations will be the big one in seeing if Borthwick evolve his rugby I feel

Youve pretty much summed up what ive been trying to say for months.

i agree that the big one is who he picks for the 6n squad AND how he starts to build his attack now. Hes got the basics starting to come through, they are clearly capable of playing at a very high intensity level, the breakdown is best ive seen it in a LONG time and we're now just hard to beat.

He needs to start showing we can attack now.

 

[LIONSxv]

Will be like 26 by the time he is qualified and should be able to play for France by the next World Cup.

If he is enjoying France might aswell stay, make better pay and if he's good enough France will look at him

Kpoku is funny one all round. He reminds of somewhere between Itoje and Woki build and playing style. He is definitely more of a lock than Woki though.

He seems to have lost quite a bit of weight which has helped his line out and France seem to like one tall gangly lock that calls the line out and one big lump who does no jumping at all

I can see him playing for France if I'm honest, given the likes of both Chessums and Martin coming through. Opportunity will be limited and he seems happy and respected in France. Shame as he is v talented guy

 

[BPM]

Youve pretty much summed up what ive been trying to say for months.

i agree that the big one is who he picks for the 6n squad AND how he starts to build his attack now. Hes got the basics starting to come through, they are clearly capable of playing at a very high intensity level, the breakdown is best ive seen it in a LONG time and we're now just hard to beat.

He needs to start showing we can attack now.

I don't want to give Borthwick too much credit. Given the draw, we more or less achieved our realistic objective.

However, I do think the degree of mental fatigue in the squad he inherited was far worse than perhaps we thought. Personally, I think Borthwick's biggest win has been getting the players in to a better head space. Our attitude over the past few weeks has been mostly good and it was excellent last weekend (apart from Billy who looked like he couldn't care less).

Now he needs to properly use this opportunity to refresh the squad and get us playing some decent rugby.

 

[will311293]

Yeah Kpoku is one who has slipped away and probably would have been a good stop gap with Isiekwe.

Interesting thing is when you consider the players likely to drop out via France/Retire... i would consider them in 5 groups (Star, First Team, Bench, Squad players, one for the future)

Seeing as we know we will loose theoretically 1 Star (Lawes), 3/4 First Team (Marchant, J Willis, B Youngs, Cole). 2 Bench (Care, Marler) and 1 Squad (Ribbans) with the likelihood of another 4/5 (May, Daly, Tuilagi, Sinckler. Billy etc) might give way we need a fair reshuffle.

I think there are a few such as Murley, Northmore, Freeman, Radwan, T Willis, Mercer, JVP, Kelly, Pearson who can step up and reckon Launchbury will want England berth for one more crack at Lions.

Think return of Launchbury & Chessum/Martin step up will cover Lawes/Ribbans, with maybe a backrow addition of Mercer/T Willis/Pearson to cover off Billy/J Willis & maybe Lawes cover too.

JVP/Quirke for me are straight switch with Youngs/Care and Murley + 1 or 2 of OHC/Radwan/Freeman could take on May/Daly.

Centres is tough.. Marchant is a big loss and not sure Manu will see benefit of staying on as won't make Lions and next WC too far away. For me Northmore/Kelly would be great additions to cover Marchant and partner Lawrence potentially.

Prop is my biggest issue. Marler & Cole are significant loss due to experience and the fact we are light in front row. I could also see Sinckler going France, much like i do with Daly, Billy, Mako and a fair few older players who are either just out the squad or have been moved along.

We realistically need a bench tighthead and maybe loosehead (depending how we see Rodd and if VRR is completely pushed out). For me either you go with Stuart/Genge starters with Rodd/VRR & Sinks off bench and fill last two spots with someone like a Baxter/Opoku-Fordjour & Painter/Fasobogon as to gain experience or you use a West + Tighthead to cover until those youngsters are ready.

For me.. if they don't need to be starting every week, use the opportunity to build with a Baxter/Opoku Fordjour and Fasobogon and build them through regular squad contact and hopefully game time in prem. We do need to figure out where our next tighthead is coming from as Sinks isn't far leaving i reckon and Stuart isn't a lot of depth and has been shown up a few times.

 

[will311293]

I don't want to give Borthwick too much credit. Given the draw, we more or less achieved our realistic objective.

However, I do think the degree of mental fatigue in the squad he inherited was far worse than perhaps we thought. Personally, I think Borthwick's biggest win has been getting the players in to a better head space. Our attitude over the past few weeks has been mostly good and it was excellent last weekend (apart from Billy who looked like he couldn't care less).

Now he needs to properly use this opportunity to refresh the squad and get us playing some decent rugby.

@BPM assuming you watched the game on Sunday, I thought Northmore (until Injury) & Murley looked v.good. Baxter for me shows promise as LHP option for 3rd squad spot and Launchbury looked dominant for a long time return. Dombs was v.good but up against it with Mercer/Pearson/T Willis.

Evans & Kenningham are interesting players for me... Evans breakdown specialist with J Willis gone offers good option and Kenningham v.similar to a Wainwright/Frizzell/Papalli type player in offering line out option, big engine but might be just not quite there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Personally, I think Borthwick's biggest win has been getting the players in to a better head space.

My jury's massively out on that. Intensity etc was there against the Boks (if not in a SF then when?) to an extent against a pitiful Arg but absent v Sam and Fij and before that in the warm ups and 6N. I need to see that level of intensity consistently to be convinced that the Borthwick project is on track. At the moment the SF is a clear outlier - encouraging, but no evidence anything's really fixed. We'll have a better idea where things really stand after the 6N.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, the SA game is very much the odd one out over the course of this year - lets see it backed up at least one time before we say we've turned a corner

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The other argument is you can't win at the top level on just attack either.
In theory once you build a pack you can build a attack.

I mean how many attacking teams win trophies all recent trophy winners?
Toulouse, France, Ireland, La Rochelle, SA, Stormers, NZ, Saracens, Leicester, Munster, Leinster.

They all have top packs and top defence. Building an attack without it will just make us another Scotland or something.

Borthwick says he wants to make England a tough team to beat, and if they can defend like they did v SA constantly then they will become a tough team to beat, he then needs to add attack.

He did that with Leicester, BUT the trouble is the RFU didn't allow him enough time to see if he actually knows how to build that attack (or allow other coaches too). So it is a concern as he has no track record of any attacking rugby.

4 minutes away from a final after the last 2 years, even with an easier pathway is still pleasing and I can't really fault it. Attacking rugby wouldn't have got us any further this year.

Six nations will be the big one in seeing if Borthwick evolve his rugby I feel

It feels like you didn't really read my post properly before jumping to your forgone conclusion, as I didn't even use the phase attacking rugby, nor do I even point that style.

Top international teams need to be good at both attack and defence and England's attack was terrible. SB has had these players together for months and the best attacking structure he could find was just kicking the ball away 93% of the time.

There was no attempt at finding space, nor getting some of the good attacking shapes we'd seen in previous flashes. It's worrying that after months of being together (the longest he'll get) our attack looks worse than a level 7 club.

 

[BPM]

Yeah, the SA game is very much the odd one out over the course of this year - lets see it backed up at least one time before we say we've turned a corner

Argentina in Round 1?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Argentina in Round 1?

Maybe, I'm not sure how I feel about that one

It was such a weird game - Ford at 10 and down to 14 for 78mins kinda throws any pregame gameplan out the window - Ford said dropgoals weren't something that came from above and were off the cuff

Definitely a good performance but not sure how much I attribute that to SBs wisdom considering the games before and after it

 

[BPM]

It feels like you didn't really read my post properly before jumping to your forgone conclusion, as I didn't even use the phase attacking rugby, nor do I even point that style.

Top international teams need to be good at both attack and defence and England's attack was terrible. SB has had these players together for months and the best attacking structure he could find was just kicking the ball away 93% of the time.

There was no attempt at finding space, nor getting some of the good attacking shapes we'd seen in previous flashes. It's worrying that after months of being together (the longest he'll get) our attack looks worse than a level 7 club.

I don't think you can judge our attack when it was clear that the plan did not involve attacking.

It's not a plan I'd like to see repeated, but from what I saw, our plan was to draw penalties or simply get in range for drop goals. The conditions didn't support a more expansive game plan and we were basically attempting the bare minimum in attack to conserve energy for defence and minimise the risk of losing the ball.

It's not like we tried and failed. It's fairly clear the plan was 'don't attack ball in hand'.

 

[BPM]

Maybe, I'm not sure how I feel about that one

It was such a weird game - Ford at 10 and down to 14 for 78mins kinda throws any pregame gameplan out the window - Ford said dropgoals weren't something that came from above and were off the cuff

Definitely a good performance but not sure how much I attribute that to SBs wisdom considering the games before and after it

I'm not attributing it to 'SB's wisdom'. However, I think we'd have crumbled under Eddie which suggests Borthwick has done some decent work on mental fortitude behind the scenes.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't think you can judge our attack when it was clear that the plan did not involve attacking.

It's not a plan I'd like to see repeated, but from what I saw, our plan was to draw penalties or simply get in range for drop goals. The conditions didn't support a more expansive game plan and we were basically attempting the bare minimum in attack to conserve energy for defence and minimise the risk of losing the ball.

It's not like we tried and failed. It's fairly clear the plan was 'don't attack ball in hand'.

By attack I don't just mean flinging the ball around though and I get the conditions made things difficult. It's more about putting pressure in the right areas to attack rather than the constant kicking without purpose. Kicking to draw a penalty isn't a plan to win a game unless you yourself are squeaky clean and we were never going to be with their physically and 'bomb squad'.

We could have had a lot more variety in our kicking game and most importantly we could have actually given the ball from Manu to run into someone at some point.

My worry is that this isn't a one off and this is actually SBs master plan for the next 4 years. He's never going to get longer with a group of players for a tournament and we've not looked like scoring trys.

 

[BPM]

I'm not saying you did mean 'flinging the ball around'. On the whole I think we're agreeing BTW.

I was simply saying that we can't judge our attacking shape in a game where we appeared to have a deliberate brief to avoid attacking altogether.

I hope it was a specific plan for a specific opponent in poor weather conditions. As I said in my post 'it's not a plan I'd like to see repeated'.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't realise Sinfield is being linked to Warrington Wolves where the head coach is......Sam Burgess

They can compare notes about being drafted into a world cup at the last minute

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It feels like you didn't really read my post properly before jumping to your forgone conclusion, as I didn't even use the phase attacking rugby, nor do I even point that style.

Top international teams need to be good at both attack and defence and England's attack was terrible. SB has had these players together for months and the best attacking structure he could find was just kicking the ball away 93% of the time.

There was no attempt at finding space, nor getting some of the good attacking shapes we'd seen in previous flashes. It's worrying that after months of being together (the longest he'll get) our attack looks worse than a level 7 club.

Saturday was very poor tactically and we lost the game due to those tactics. So while we defended well for a change, if that is the New England then count me out as our attacking play was terrible, our tactics poor and our captain a bit of a prick.

I am worried that SB will continue with this terrible set of tactics and probably keep on some of the terrible players as well.

You mention attacking play here


And I don't disagree I'm just saying that aren't a top international side, and you can't expect them to be yet

Months isn't that long in coaching perspective even clubs it take like a year for teams to gel

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Youngs retiring from international duty after the 3rd place match.

So that's him, Lawes and 99% May so far.

 

[ncurd]

Youngs retiring from international duty after the 3rd place match.

Yes! Excellent news.

Fair play to start him by Borthwick if he already knew.