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England World Cup Squad

So who doesnt now make the 6N post WC and who replaces them.

I hope Dan replaces George going forward(as starting No2) and SB's plan was to use George's experience to get us far in the WC and Dan to learn all the calls and get time in camp to take over for the 6N.

But whos out? Now and over the next year?
 
Proud of the fight and intensity England put forward in the last game. I was expecting us to lose by 14+.

Particular note for Marler, Cole, and especially Lawes. If this is their last tournament in an England shirt then they can go out with their heads held high.

It feels unfair to single them out as almost everyone gave it their all (except Billy V).

I imagine there will be quite a few players leaving now; some I'll be sorry to see go, some who should have gone a few years ago. And Faz, who we're probably stuck with for another cycle. They should at least stop making him captain; in the second half players like George were actively keeping him away from the ref.

I think a lot of spots will just... become vacant, and it's up to the new guys to grab their chances. I'd be amazed if two slots didn't open up at scrum half, for example, and I regard Steward as the only nailed-on back (well, and Faz unfortunately)

The one that worries me is the front row. Genge and Sinkler could be playing at the next world cup; they're not so bad that they deserve dropping, but I don't think they're good enough to be guaranteed the shirts. And with no-one really knocking on the door in those positions I'm concerned they keep their shirts through inertia rather than merit.

I reckon our locks and back row are in an ideal situation; we've almost got too many good players there, and the competition for spots can only be a good thing.
 
Ok, this is purely who I think should not be in contention at all

Props Out: Cole & Marler. I expect both to retire from international rugby and we've already seen the danger this cycle of not giving younger players experience. If they aren't going to play in 2027 then it's a waste of caps. Rest can stay, but Sinckler definitely needs to earn his place and shouldn't be a given. He'll be 34 in 2027 so for me if he doesn't justify his place then he should be shipped on too. Personally, I'd like to see scrummaging being given priority over the loose. Props are there for the scrum and the loose is just a bonus.

Hookers out: George. He's a fantastic player, but the lack of depth and LCD's injuries mean again we need to blood younger places, even if it's painful at first. He's 33 and played almost every minute of the tournament. That shouldn't happen and England are so lucky he hasn't got injured. Even if LCD stays fit he'll be 34 in 2027, so like Sinckler would not be a guaranteed starter anyway.
(Thinking about it, I could be persuaded if George doesn't retire for him to be a bench option for the next year as a transition).

Locks out: None. Though Itoje should not be an automatic starter anymore and needs to earn his place.

Back row: Vunipola & Lawes. Apart from one game Lawes was fantastic, but we have enough back row options that we don't need him holding up caps for other players. Vunipola can just **** off after that lazy performance.

SH: Youngs & Care. Simple enough, we have other options now so give them experience and both won't be around in 2027. If Youngs is then I fully expect him to still be playing when I die of old age.

FH: Farrell. He had his best game against S.A but he just stifles the attack and I honestly feel he's a toxic presence in the changing room. He's the legacy of EJ and it seems like players can't relax while he's there. Also it became completely apparent he's not captain material after his display with the ref yesterday. I'd keep Ford for a year or two to mentor younger players, but unless he intends to go to the WC in 2027 then it should be limited.

Centres: Manu. He did better than I though, but he's still not the player of old and again we need to look beyond him now.

Back 3: May & Daly. Both again actually played well against S.A, but it's one game and I don't see them playing for England in 2027. We have plenty of young options so cap them.
 
May has already said he's retiring from test rugby. On the others, I totally agree and I think the majority of them will call it a day anyway. I can definitely see Marler, Lawes, Cole, Youngs, Care and Tuilagi retiring after next Friday's game.

The trickier ones are those that are young enough to stay involved but should be moved on. Your point on Sinckler is entirely fair - the trouble is, he options to replace him are pretty non-existent. Stuart and Heyes are OK, but after that, there isn't really anyone close to being ready. Maybe Schickerling (who is eligible next month)? We have Harper and Fasogbon coming through but we may need someone like Collier to step in for the short term.

There's no justification to keep picking Daly when there are at least 4 younger options who are at the very least his equal (Murley, Radwan, Freeman, OHC). For the same reason, I can't really see the point of Malins? He's not old, but he just isn't that good.
 
My other big concern is we still showed 0 attacking flair. May and Daly were literally there to chase balls. Did Marchant get the ball at all?
England kicked it almost every time 1st phase and even outside the Bok 22 they still kicked it.

Yes England showed a huge improvement in atttitude, effort and defence, but reality is they brought S.A down to their level, something we've made fun of Wales for doing plenty of times before. I am still worried for the future that England will just be very one dimensional.
 
Feels harsh but I'd probably be dropping Watson too. I've always been happy to see his name on the team sheet but he'll be 33 at the next WC and as BPM points out we're not lacking young talent on the wing. Or at fullback either if Arundell comes good.

George Ford feels like a bit of a conundrum. He's excellent, don't get me wrong, but when Faz inevitably keeps his place where does Ford fit? Ideally I'd like Ford as the reliable option while we bring through Smith and... well, probably Smith again (Fin) unless he goes to Scotland. But every coach seems to prefer Faz.
 
Reiser99 said:
My other big concern is we still showed 0 attacking flair. May and Daly were literally there to chase balls. Did Marchant get the ball at all?
England kicked it almost every time 1st phase and even outside the Bok 22 they still kicked it.

Yes England showed a huge improvement in atttitude, effort and defence, but reality is they brought S.A down to their level, something we've made fun of Wales for doing plenty of times before. I am still worried for the future that England will just be very one dimensional.
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England were in a terrible place pre WC so what has SB done about it, he's sured up our defence, implemented a kicking game that almost g9t us to a SF. We arnt giving away breakdown pens, or alot tbh.


He has worked hard on the basics, its hard to do all that and develop an attack, basics good, so now time to add the attack
 
So no-one else thinks Farrell might retire?

I always thought he'd want to play for England for as long as possible. Now I think he might want to bow out on a relative high as record points scorer.
 
Jashay said:
Feels harsh but I'd probably be dropping Watson too. I've always been happy to see his name on the team sheet but he'll be 33 at the next WC and as BPM points out we're not lacking young talent on the wing. Or at fullback either if Arundell comes good.

George Ford feels like a bit of a conundrum. He's excellent, don't get me wrong, but when Faz inevitably keeps his place where does Ford fit? Ideally I'd like Ford as the reliable option while we bring through Smith and... well, probably Smith again (Fin) unless he goes to Scotland. But every coach seems to prefer Faz.
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I really rate Watson but he is so injury prone that picking him now is a risk. That isn't going to be reduced with more miles on the clock.
 
I just hope SB recognises that this is absolutely a brand new cycle. It's always tempting to "make use of experience" but he needs to be very selective as to who that comes from.

What was very apparent last night was the difference in benches. Don't get me wrong- not everyone is ever gonna have the forward options that SA have, but I wanna see a major focus on England finding some strong tight 5 scrummagers- and I include Lock especially in that where potentially George Martin excelled last night (can only go on gut feel from what we saw).

We also need to think about how we'd like to open up our attack too, and that's why for me Faz wouldn't be in my initial squads going forward. If you're bringing the likes of Smith through as a key playmaker, you probably want Ford as the experienced head as he is more playmaker than Faz and so can help you keep to the plan.

I think we also need to appreciate how big a rebuild this is.

We are still outside of Manu, yet to find a world class 12 or a top class centre combination and I'm struggling to pick who they might be going forward. Lawrence and Marchant could do a cycle- Slade will be 34 by then so he might not be?

Some big calls and lots of hard work to come - really do hope we find some talents.
 
I'm lying in bed, my head is pounding and I feel like I cannot move but my overwhelming feeling this morning is pride. Couldn't have asked any more of the team yesterday. 1-19 and 21-23 they were all outstanding. I feel a bit for Vunipola really, he's gonna have an entire rugby nation blaming him for the loss and frankly it kinda was his fault but he shouldn't have been selected in the first place. That choice lies with Borthwick.

I've got plenty of thoughts about where we go from here, who should be moved on, who are the good young players, etc. but now isn't the time. For now I'll just say fair play to the team and fair play to the coaches. They did a hell of a lot better than anyone thought they would.
 
Pieter Steph du Teague said:
I'm lying in bed, my head is pounding and I feel like I cannot move but my overwhelming feeling this morning is pride. Couldn't have asked any more of the team yesterday. 1-19 and 21-23 they were all outstanding. I feel a bit for Vunipola really, he's gonna have an entire rugby nation blaming him for the loss and frankly it kinda was his fault but he shouldn't have been selected in the first place. That choice lies with Borthwick.
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Really? Mine's one of total frustration. There was a gilt edged opportunity to make the final there and for 50 minutes it looked a virtual certainty, it really did. And some avoidable mistakes - Farrell's petulance, a couple of attacking set pieces etc.

The Boks bench won that for them. We didn't trust 2 of ours and 3 of the 5 who did come on won't be wanting to see a repeat - Binny, Genge and Sinckler.

As for change. Needed and will happen, but not all at once - we don't want a cliff edge.
 
BPM said:
So no-one else thinks Farrell might retire?

I always thought he'd want to play for England for as long as possible. Now I think he might want to bow out on a relative high as record points scorer.
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There's rumours oop north that he's going to Wigan Warriors when his contract expires (think that's next season? There's no money in league so doubt he'd leave mid contract if the final year is optional)

Almost definitely ******** but Farrell has often spoken about how he'd love to play league and how his boyhood dream was to play for Wigan so it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to get a season in before he retires (and presumably moves into coaching)
 
I think I'd cycle out most of the current players and look for wholesale rebuild, I'd keep JG for the minute whilst we give good game time to someone happy with Dan if the main attributes of a hooker, scrum and lineout dramatically improve, mixed feelings on Steward but I have to confess if the other two back three players have genuine gas he is probably a viable and good option, would like to see him improve a little in the physicality front as he is a lump compared to many and add a bit of distribution, fly half Ford and Smith blended with probably as has already been pointed out the other Smith, a fair few Sale players certainly need looking at, Roebuck, both Currys to become main inclusions, Warr needs looking at, with foundations like that I think we can build something we may not compete consistantly with top 4 but we should be comfortably jumping a few world ranking places and become exceptionally hard to beat and have a descent foundation to build Upon.
 
I think its a case of evolution not total revolution.

Phase 1 - prepare for World Cup
Strip the tactics back..work hard on the basics...fitness and discipline. Make us hard to beat...and just fight through the tournament.
Done

Phase 2- Immediately post WC for 6n
Continue to improve basics, fitness, discipline...and now the introduction of attack.
Adapt the squad according to retirees, availability and those just not good enough. Bring in players who ahould go to 2027...but also look to close the gap on the Irish and French in the 6n.

The RFU have introduced workshops for the Englad U18 and U20 players (Forwards and backs) with the aim of bridging the gap from Age group level to seniors.

The first one for Forwards was great success...and all the participants said it was a huge learning experience. We need these regular so the young talent comes through ready and with enhanced skills for their positions
 
Sinfield out and Felix Jones in as defence coach is definitely a surprise - I really did think Jones was coming in as basically an assistant HC (as in he helps out with everything) rather than as a specialist

36yr old Farrell starting at 10 in the next world cup is a depressing thought

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
Thank you RFU for the money for Sinfield
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Who's your defence coach now? You could hire KS back and still be quids in
 

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