England World Cup Squad

[Ragey Erasmus]

At this point I think who we select is largely irrelevant, the team look clueless and everyone is playing below how they perform at club level. This is 100% a coaching problem.

 

[Geordie]

Who's that aimed at?
Has anyone called for Borthwick's head now?
There's a huge difference between "Borthwick should not have been appointed" and "Borthwick should be fired"

For myself, this is what I said before the warm-up games:

We're not dropping out in the pool stages; we're not playing well, but we have topped the pool.
I'm not calling for his head yet, but I may or may not be if we fail to show any fight in the QF and just limp out.

Not aimed at anyone specifically....just saying...what 15 are people thinking for the 6n

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So many points kicking around.

Right to can Jones, but wrong to pick Borthwick ahead of an experienced interim.

Has Borthwick made the best of the hand he was dealt? 1000% not. In so many ways.

Was fitness an issue? Possibly, but last night's team included Cole, George, Farrell, May and Manu whose best years are all way in the rear view mirror. I'd usually exempt Lawes from that but I barely noticed him outside the line outs while purring at McFarland's contribution. Binny's in the same bracket, possibly Marler (although he'd probably still be my starter) and so's Care although he's well suited to the cameo role - which is also Mitchell's strength. Unless or until we get 9 sorted the whole team will carry on ******* in the wind.

As for power / pace…..there's the age thing and some truth in it but:

Our best domestic scrummagers and most rapid winger weren't selected.

LCD, if fit, adds some rambunctiousness and would probably have had the 2 shirt and while Dan's a way off at the moment he could be a Brits in the making - but we're English so would be far too suspicious of that.

Chessum looks the very essence of a modern lock. He can be athletic one going forward, pair him with a big TH lock and bin off Itoje - seriously, he's been a common thread in the underperforming years. Let him fight his way back if he's good and hungry enough.

In the back row Curry's rusty and can get better. Earl's dynamic and done well but a flanker really. For the future T Willis, Mercer and Pearson are all full of fast twitch fibres and skills. If Barbeary can get fit he has the pinballing direct go forward we're missing. Martin remains a 6 to me but, either way, has plenty of power - one huge Underhill type tackle last night. Hopefully Underhill himself can get back in the mix - people scoffed when I said he was the first name on the team sheet as he had the ability to alter the mood of a match with one big play - one way or another we massively miss him.

In the backs Smith is quick and will ask questions. Lawrence has enough all round pace power and skills to be a fixture. Arundell's quick and skilful and may be more full back but I have no issue with him learning his international trade on the wing. If fit Watson obvs comes back and he's plenty quick enough.

The raw materials aren't world beating but not as bad as often portrayed. Whoever's picked, selection, coaching and clarity has to improve. When Samoa were in the game they made our midfield look like a defensive sieve.

Oh and anyone notice who ran a smart angle and showed great hands to create the overlap for Chessum's try? No less than the much maligned Steward. He's more than capable, more of that please.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I mean who would be better than Genge and Sinckler.

Genge and Sinckler. That's the thing, we're simply not seeing the best versions of themselves.

Two formerly very angry, raging players now just occasionally get mildly irritated. Insert Bristol jibe here if you have the energy.

 

[Geordie]

So many points kicking around.

Right to can Jones, but wrong to pick Borthwick ahead of an experienced interim.

Has Borthwick made the best of the hand he was dealt? 1000% not. In so many ways.

Was fitness an issue? Possibly, but last night's team included Cole, George, Farrell, May and Manu whose best years are all way in the rear view mirror. I'd usually exempt Lawes from that but I barely noticed him outside the line outs while purring at McFarland's contribution. Binny's in the same bracket, possibly Marler (although he'd probably still be my starter) and so's Care although he's well suited to the cameo role - which is also Mitchell's strength. Unless or until we get 9 sorted the whole team will carry on ******* in the wind.

As for power / pace…..there's the age thing and some truth in it but:

Our best domestic scrummagers and most rapid winger weren't selected.

LCD, if fit, adds some rambunctiousness and would probably have had the 2 shirt and while Dan's a way off at the moment he could be a Brits in the making - but we're English so would be far too suspicious of that.

Chessum looks the very essence of a modern lock. He can be athletic one going forward, pair him with a big TH lock and bin off Itoje - seriously, he's been a common thread in the underperforming years. Let him fight his way back if he's good and hungry enough.

In the back row Curry's rusty and can get better. Earl's dynamic and done well but a flanker really. For the future T Willis, Mercer and Pearson are all full of fast twitch fibres and skills. If Barbeary can get fit he has the pinballing direct go forward we're missing. Martin remains a 6 to me but, either way, has plenty of power - one huge Underhill type tackle last night. Hopefully Underhill himself can get back in the mix - people scoffed when I said he was the first name on the team sheet as he had the ability to alter the mood of a match with one big play - one way or another we massively miss him.

In the backs Smith is quick and will ask questions. Lawrence has enough all round pace power and skills to be a fixture. Arundell's quick and skilful and may be more full back but I have no issue with him learning his international trade on the wing. If fit Watson obvs comes back and he's plenty quick enough.

The raw materials aren't world beating but not as bad as often portrayed. Whoever's picked, selection, coaching and clarity has to improve. When Samoa were in the game they made our midfield look like a defensive sieve.

Oh and anyone notice who ran a smart angle and showed great hands to create the overlap for Chessum's try? No less than the much maligned Steward. He's more than capable, more of that please.

Got to say I think you have summed up the majority of things absolutely spot in there. Great post...

Agree about Itoje...he looks like he's running in sand at times and his handling even for a lock is poor.

Genge and Sinkler have undergone mental therapy to reduce their anger and its had a big detriment to their game.

Manu is not the colossal pytsical player he was and doesn't have ANY pace so is a wasted spot.

And you can go on about many of rhe squad. I'd be changing about 10- 15 in this squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Underhill called up to replace Willis!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Genge and Sinckler. That's the thing, we're simply not seeing the best versions of themselves.

Two formerly very angry, raging players now just occasionally get mildly irritated. Insert Bristol jibe here if you have the energy.

They replaced the power of anger with love

 

[TopTen2003]

Couple of things really stood out to me yesterday:

1) Leadership: Did anyone else notice how much worse England looked leadership-wise yesterday? When the pressure was on, who stood up and led by example? Both Lawes and Ford- for me the two standout characters against Argentina and Japan, looked utterly stifled. Both their performances and communications suffered- I didn't once see them lead by example. I also noted Itoje- who looked somewhere closer to being back to his best in the opening two games- also dipped. Mitchell- excellent in the openers- had a poor game but I think he and Ford stuttered because they were not playing without influence of a playmaking 12 and instead looked hesitant.

This to me reeks of trying to play and bend to an OF rigid plan or orders. Whether the team, management or OF realise it or not, it looks to me as if there is an unintended negative impact of having this guy as captain.

2) Pace and Width vs Gain Line: There are certain combinations which seem to dictate the threat and pace that England offer.

Tuilagi with Marchant/Lawrence in midfield (or any combo from the three) gives England a chance to make a yard or two and gives us a good physical foundation to build on. That seemed to open up the odd burst for a Daly or May (and a loose forward like Earl) in the first couple games, both of whom are not exactly magic feet these days who self-create. They play off forward momentum.

Farrell with Tuilagi outside totally limits Tuilagi as a space creator and distributor, and also weakens his defence as he is much better defending the physicality threat down the inside centre channel than having people getting on his outside. In attack, Farrell offers no run threat and so we go outside and wide too early, which for May and Marchant just leaves them stuck in dead ends. If you are playing wide early, you have to give it to some twinkle toes like Arundell, Smith et al.


If Farrell plays 12 again in the knockouts, I think we have no choice but to inject pace out wide and at FB or else there is zero point having him as an extra distributor. We have to go all or nothing in the knockouts whichever direction we choose.



Ford- Farrell- Marchant
Daly Arundell
Smith


Ford- Tuilagi- Marchant/Lawrence
Daly Arundell
Steward

I'd pick the second one personally and make Lawes captain.


3) Bench:

Bench has to be all about impetus. Billy Vunipola is not cutting it as an impact player. With Curry and Earls versatility, bring Willis (EDIT: UNDERHILL!!) into the bench role over BV as that enables the correct balance and combos.

I also think Genge once again struggled as a starter- I think a 25 min bulldozing cameo should be his role now. Genge, Martin, Dan, Lawrence, Smith, Underhill for me all inject a good energy off the bench.


Not sure why I've written this rambling message but just airing thought from what was a very messy and disappointing performance.

I still think there is a game in this group if paired correctly where we could at least go out in the SF on our shield.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Underhill called up to replace Willis!

View attachment 18044

Unless they play to not start Lawes I feel it's a bit wasted

 

[TopTen2003]

Underhill called up to replace Willis!

View attachment 18044

LFG!! Love this. Get him in for a bench cameo immediately for the QF

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Unless they play to not start Lawes I feel it's a bit wasted

Yeah I doubt he makes the side considering he was behind Ludlam and Willis pre-tournament and neither are in SBs 23 atm

Still dreaming of a Kamikaze twin reunion but unless they decide to put Lawes at 4 (which they won't/shouldn't) I can't see it

 

[LIONSxv]

Not aimed at anyone specifically....just saying...what 15 are people thinking for the 6n

Genge
LCD
Sinks (until some who is arsed can be found)
Chessum/Itoje (these two can't play together as too similar)
Martin s TH lock ( the boy needs to learn to jump )
Curry
Underhill
Mercer ( line out option and best 8 in T14 last year)
Take your pick at SH, possibly JVP
Smith
Kelly
Marchant(if allowed) Lawrence if not
Arundell
Murley
Steward

 

[Geordie]

I think George Martin has not really done himself justice this WC. However he did put one of his trademark shuddering hits on last night.

He's 22...so I hope he takes on board the requirements for a lock at this level (as Chessum has) and really get his head down this season.

I'll be watching how Lewis Chessum does aswell mind. Of he develops as quickly as his brother did...he could come through quickly indeed.

I'm really curious why Dan Kelly (A Borthwick go to for Tigers) was not selected for this WC..

Or is the plan to pick or the guns for the 6n...

 

[BrokenWing]

I assume it's to do with only being allowed to make five changes to the EPS squad, and he thought that the changes were best served in other areas.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Anyone know what sort of form Underhill has been in? Really happy to see him in the mix, though when a coach doesn't select him in the first place it probably means he's unlikely to catapult into starting the game. I really rate him though.

I don't know if the stats bear this out but I feel like our error count was big against Samoa. That should be something we can fix even if going forward we look like we've got collective dementia.

I'm pretty scared about the quarters though, even if objectively we have a good chance of beating Fiji

 

[Geordie]

Anyone know what sort of form Underhill has been in? Really happy to see him in the mix, though when a coach doesn't select him in the first place it probably means he's unlikely to catapult into starting the game. I really rate him though.

I don't know if the stats bear this out but I feel like our error count was big against Samoa. That should be something we can fix even if going forward we look like we've got collective dementia.

I'm pretty scared about the quarters though, even if objectively we have a good chance of beating Fiji

Well he played v Exeter yesterday but Ted Hill was MOTM...

 

[Geordie]

I assume it's to do with only being allowed to make five changes to the EPS squad, and he thought that the changes were best served in other areas.

Is rhat right? I thought he could pick a new squad for the WC and again for thw start of a new WC cycle. That would explain a few things.

I'm expecting a big change after this WC for the 6n...both enforced (retirees, Ineligible in France) and players he doesn't pick again.

 

[Becca]

Is rhat right? I thought he could pick a new squad for the WC and again for thw start of a new WC cycle. That would explain a few things.

I'm expecting a big change after this WC for the 6n...both enforced (retirees, Ineligible in France) and players he doesn't pick again.

I'm hoping for a big change but just don't trust we'll get one

 

[Which Tyler]

I assume it's to do with only being allowed to make five changes to the EPS squad, and he thought that the changes were best served in other areas.

It's not the 6N any more.
This is 100% his squad, and as far as I'm aware, he can make as many changes as he likes ahead of the next 6N

 

[TRF_Olyy]

NZ, Australia, South Africa and AN Other
Hoping the fourth game is Georgia or even Portugal, but I'm guessing it'll be Fiji or Samoa