England World Cup Squad

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Ok one thing Cole is apparently very fit in terms of metrics, the trouble with him is he has no explosive power which is different to fitness

I can't believe those metrics are right if cole tops them. He literally walks round the pitch. He's an embarrassment caompared to other international tight heads.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So which tight heads are better than the aging cole? Honestly...

Schonert was the best in the league last season and he's spent his summer making/selling donuts

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Fair enough..ssck Borthwick now bring in a losd of Foreigners like Scotland and Ireland and all is good....

Or select the talented premiership players and a decent gameplan.

SB has gone very limited on the gameplan but not really selected talent to accompany it. He's failed on both, but then he was set up to fail with the short time scales.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But Willis isn't ready

How come?
A year older than Underhill and 4 years older than Curry in the 2019 RWC

He's excelled at club level for years, the only way to know if he's ready is to try him but he won't because we'd rather have Billy

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can't believe those metrics are right if cole tops them. He literally walks round the pitch. He's an embarrassment caompared to other international tight heads.

Literally all props walk around, I feel like you are just saying confirmation biases
He made 8 tackles in 48 minutes 0 missed
In comparison
Itoje 9 (90 minutes, 3 missed)
Genge 6 (55 minutes)
Sinckler 4 (32 minutes)

Schonert should've gone over Cole. But Cole has great fitness let alone considering he's 36 and still gets flogged by Leicester)

He's just literally has no power (Which isn't something new either)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Literally all props walk around, I feel like you are just saying confirmation biases
He made 8 tackles in 48 minutes 0 missed
In comparison
Itoje 9 (90 minutes, 3 missed)
Genge 6 (55 minutes)
Sinckler 4 (32 minutes)

Schonert should've gone over Cole. But Cole has great fitness let alone considering he's 36 and still gets flogged by Leicester)

He's just literally has no power (Which isn't something new either)

The stats only prove they all should have stayed at home

Poor stats for generally poor players.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How come?
A year older than Underhill and 4 years older than Curry in the 2019 RWC

He's excelled at club level for years, the only way to know if he's ready is to try him but he won't because we'd rather have Billy

Yeh it's mental to think Tom Willis was the starting 8 for a top 14 semi finalist
The other 3 Number 8's in those semi finals got picked by France
Woki
Jelonch
Alldritt

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The stats only prove they all should have stayed at home

Poor stats for generally poor players.

I mean who would be better than Genge and Sinckler.
If Clubs like Saints bothered to try and develop props then maybe I could agree.

So which is it Borthwick or the players?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I mean who would be better than Genge and Sinckler.
If Clubs like Saints bothered to try and develop props then maybe I could agree.

So which is it Borthwick or the players?

It's Borthwick and his selection. One and the same problem. Just hope he learns from his school boy mistakes but it's not looking likely.

As for my beloved saints, we really don't develop forwards at all since the hood left. Before that we had some of the best props on the prem but after he left we've gone backwards. Why players like Hill stay is beyond me when we've made him a worse player.

 

[Crash Hamster]

So which is it Borthwick or the players?

Fitness can't be an important criterion if Binny (old, fat and slow by international standards, Premiership standard allegedly poor) is selected ahead of Mercer (tearing up trees in the supposedly much better French T14)

The gameplan doesn't suit the best players available.

The best players available aren't selected.

The players selected aren't picked in their normal position.

Selected players are coached out of the form which got them in. (JvP was electric for Tigers, quick ball, sniping breaks, an obvious international-class player, but now he's been turned into Ben Youngs, even though players like Dupont and De Klerk play in that quick, sniping way)

Selection is so inconsistent that no reasonable observer can have any idea what it is that England are trying to do.

 

[Geordie]

So if you got your way after the WC Borthwick is sacked who do you bring in?

And what side would you pick for the first 6n game?

 

[ncurd]

So if you got your way after the WC Borthwick is sacked who do you bring in?

And what side would you pick for the first 6n game?

Edwards but I'd also keep Borthwick for a year and see if he brings freshness to.a new rugby world cup cycle.

I don't really care on side apart from getting rid of the old guard (anyone who will over the age of 32 at the next world cup).

I dont think England don't have the right parts to be a good side they have just been coached horrendously for the past 4 years.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

So if you got your way after the WC Borthwick is sacked who do you bring in?

And what side would you pick for the first 6n game?

I don't have an answer because I'm not a rugby exec, but what I do know is that SB lacked experience for this role and that is currently showing. Making matters worse, he's got a very weak (In experience) selection of assistant coaches with him.

He may turn out great in the end but we don't know. What we do know is hi gameplan and selection arnt on point yet and he's got a lot to learn. Maybe another international coach wouldn't be making some of the mistakes SB is, but we don't know.

But with the easy draw we got, we'll never actually know if he was better than a Steve diamond, Baxter or Phil Dowsom character. Who knows….

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The earliest I'd be reviewing Borthwick's contract is '25 (unless things nosedive further)
While this season has been poor you can give him the benefit of the doubt because of being parachuted in mid season in the build up to a RWC
Two full seasons of solely his coaches and players is enough to see what he's really like

Whilst I do think he was too green to be brought in as head coach it was always their plan at some point - I think the biggest issue ATM, as Tigsman said earlier, was allowing him to surround himself with equally green coaches.
Like has any other world cup coach gone from player to international coach in the same season like Wigglesworth has?
Even someone as knowledgeable and respected as Paul O'Connell put in 6yrs before making it to international level - bit different from part time coaching for 18months

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I could accept SB staying if the assistant coaches are completely cleaned out and replaced with experienced and proven assistants. SB has a fair chunk of experience and really should be doing better. The assistants though are woefully lacking. We need to stop ******* about and just get a full on first class coaching team in.

 

[Reiser99]

My very faint hope is Borthwick has kept the core of Jones's squad so he can blame him and start fresh after the WC.

 

[Reiser99]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67041882

Still worried by the comments such as only having a short time to try new things. Borthwick knew that coming in. He should have got a clear, simple plan in place and stuck with it. Not be trying new things in the last group game of a world cup. I can see why the players look confused on the pitch, it sounds like the coaching lacks clarity. I imagine it's all lots of little separate ideas that Borthwick and co hopes will magically gel rather than small steps in an overall big idea.

Also Care saying would it have been better to win by 30 points? Yes. Majority of players are veterans. They shouldn't need a close game to learn more about themselves. On top, how many close games won and lost does it take to learn, because I don't see any real improvement from England?

Just pathetic excuses now from a group who know they won't win. Look what happens when Samoa puts them under a bit of pressure. Now imagine Ireland, France or South Africa doing so.

 

[Which Tyler]

So if you got your way after the WC Borthwick is sacked who do you bring in?

And what side would you pick for the first 6n game?

Who's that aimed at?
Has anyone called for Borthwick's head now?
There's a huge difference between "Borthwick should not have been appointed" and "Borthwick should be fired"

For myself, this is what I said before the warm-up games:

Taking the RFU out of the equation, what (do we think) our red lines for him are?
So ahead of the RWC, what would we consider catastrophe, unacceptable, acceptable, or better than expected?

For me, he's now got the coaches he wanted, and the players he wants; and he's had them in camp for 6-8 weeks and counting, will be 15 weeks by the time the RWC starts.
The warm-ups are just that, they're pre-season matches with international teams, not club; so I'm trying not to read too much into them.
Par at the RWC, given the draw, is a losing semi-final.

If we drop out in the pool stages, then I'll probably be calling for his head.
If we lose the QF, having failed to perform well, I may well be calling for his head.
If we lose the QF, having performed well, and just got beaten by a better team on the day - fair enough, I'll probably be disgruntled, but give him the 6N and June window.
If we lose the SF, he'll have reached par, and earned to reach the 2-year mark to see if he can refresh the squad and start getting some improvements.
If we win the SF, he's probably earned the full 4 year period (barring future bad performances).

We're not dropping out in the pool stages; we're not playing well, but we have topped the pool.
I'm not calling for his head yet, but I may or may not be if we fail to show any fight in the QF and just limp out.

 

[Reiser99]

If we pick that team again against Fiji then I'm betting on limping out.

Honestly at this stage Borthwick needs to go **** it because sticking with the old guard is just a losing recipe at this point.

 

[LIONSxv]

If you bring in Mercer and Underhill into the pack. Smith at 10 pick two proper centres and two fast wingers. This England side would be multiple times better than its current version
I feel people are just making excuses up for SB when I keep hearing we have poor players. What we have is good players playing poorly as we are unfit, and unmotivated (as the players look confused as to what the game plan in)
The tactics look woeful