England vs Wales - 12/08/23

[Zed]

Sexton and Dan Biggar aren't exactly blessed with pace and scoring tries for fun. Neither did Wilkinson he wasn't exactly a pacey scoring machine. You can be Marcus Smith and it counts for nothing when your getting turned over because your supports two seconds behind to clear out.

Yeah pace isn't everything. Farrell is obviously a good player, but he seems to lack something. Or perhaps it's the players around him and/or the coaching/gameplan.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah pace isn't everything. Farrell is obviously a good player, but he seems to lack something. Or perhaps it's the players around him and/or the coaching/gameplan.

Thinking at pace is though - being decisive, flexible and a couple of moves ahead. Being hot headed isn't a great trait for a decision maker either.

Beyond that how could he possibly fail? He's playing behind an all conquering pack, outside a 9 with slick fast service and inside a settled, complementary centre pairing.

I was a big fan of Farrell but I think his moment has passed. As it has for too many of Saturday's squad.

 

[Reiser99]

England's secret


Yeah not a relevant stat I suppose. I wonder if part of the problem is England (and other teams) are being over-coached? It's drilled into them that this stage of the game they do X, Y, Z, if they're in their 22, they kick, any penalties they go for line, or goal, no tap and gos etc etc It's pretty limiting and stops players like Arundell playing their natural game, playing with a bit of freedom. If he gets the ball on England's tryline there's no way he's having a crack like he did for London Irish. He's kicking it out. I'm not saying players should be running around like headless chooks running it from their 22, but if it's on, you have a go. The best time to attack for players like Arundell, Watson etc is attacking from deep in broken play. If they're flat out, they'll be hard to pull down. How many tries did Cullen score from deep? But I can imagine Borthwick pretty much ruling that out as an option. Kick downfield and apply pressure..... that might work against teams like Italy, but the ABs will be putting 40+ points on England if they play a kicking game.

I definitely think being over coached is an issue. For me the biggest problem with players like Arundell having a go isn't that they can't, but if they did the rest of the team wouldn't be ready to support them. It's like the whole team works to the structure and if someone does something different they are all surprised.

 

[Geordie]

I agree with the OF situation.
He is an integral part of the Sarries success, but that is it, he is part of a team.

For England he looks like he is lost and follows instructions to a tee, while for Sarries, he has other leaders to help him or sometimes tell him what to do.

This is a distinct issue for England, just look back to 2003 and there were many leaders. One story says that Johnson was getting angry at ref and decisions were not going our way. Up steps Dayglo and Dawson to move him away and talk to ref.
Good leadership by all.

Agree...and Goode is a big part in telling Farrell the plays to call etc.

 

[retired9]

I definitely think being over coached is an issue. For me the biggest problem with players like Arundell having a go isn't that they can't, but if they did the rest of the team wouldn't be ready to support them. It's like the whole team works to the structure and if someone does something different they are all surprised.

I think that line probably sums up International English rugby as a whole, historically they have always liked structure to the point where it can mke them slow/unable to play what's in front of them.
It hasn't always been the case, but it takes quite a while to coach a mindset pattern accross the whole team (underpinned by a plan) rather than the perhaps more straighforward rehearsing moves and patterns based on "we do this here, we do that there".
This is what Scotland have been going through and its taken Townsend quite a few years and quite a lot of poor performances to get to somewhere where we might be in the mix in most matches.
England have the players to do it (we always say that), but I think Youngs at 9 is too slow and Ford is probably needing trusted to steady the ship for a while - Smith is still there but will need a bit of nurturing to get the best out of him, it took us YEARS with Finn Russell and a handy stint in France to get the player he is today. Don't give up on Smith, but it will take some evolution to get the rest of the team to play his style effectively.

 

[Smurfy]

Agree...and Goode is a big part in telling Farrell the plays to call etc.

The key to effective attack is having more than one playmaker, and Goode is spectacularly effective in that role with Sarries. Ireland under Schmidt struggled for years from this failing, and then Farrell plucked Hansen from obscurity and it transformed Irelands attack. Borthwick is repeating Schmidt's error, opting for a supposedly steady, low error fullback like Kearney, who offers very little in creative attack. Current day Steward is a better player than latter day Kearney but they're cut from the same cloth, and Borthwick needs to find a creative back from somewhere to complement whoever is at 10.

 

[Geordie]

The key to effective attack is having more than one playmaker, and Goode is spectacularly effective in that role with Sarries. Ireland under Schmidt struggled for years from this failing, and then Farrell plucked Hansen from obscurity and it transformed Irelands attack. Borthwick is repeating Schmidt's error, opting for a supposedly steady, low error fullback like Kearney, who offers very little in creative attack. Current day Steward is a better player than latter day Kearney but they're cut from the same cloth, and Borthwick needs to find a creative back from somewhere to complement whoever is at 10.

I think thats WHy Borthwick wants Malins or way better...Daly at wing. Hopefully Daly will be at 11...for that exact reason..

 

[retired9]

The key to effective attack is having more than one playmaker, and Goode is spectacularly effective in that role with Sarries. Ireland under Schmidt struggled for years from this failing, and then Farrell plucked Hansen from obscurity and it transformed Irelands attack. Borthwick is repeating Schmidt's error, opting for a supposedly steady, low error fullback like Kearney, who offers very little in creative attack. Current day Steward is a better player than latter day Kearney but they're cut from the same cloth, and Borthwick needs to find a creative back from somewhere to complement whoever is at 10.

Leftfield suggestion (excuse my ignorance), would Smith be a viable option at 15?

 

[Smurfy]

Leftfield suggestion (excuse my ignorance), would Smith be a viable option at 15?

It's not so much about flair as intelligence imo. I think Smith might flourish alongside a second playmaker who is providing pace and space but not convinced he's the guy for the role.

 

[higgik]

Leftfield suggestion (excuse my ignorance), would Smith be a viable option at 15?

The best option would have been Slade, but Daly would do the job well.
If we had 2 wingers who would be stable under high ball, such as Watson and Arundell then could be a good back 3.
Steward should be moved to 12 for Tigers.

 

[retired9]

It's not so much about flair as intelligence imo. I think Smith might flourish alongside a second playmaker who is providing pace and space but not convinced he's the guy for the role.

The best option would have been Slade, but Daly would do the job well.
If we had 2 wingers who would be stable under high ball, such as Watson and Arundell then could be a good back 3.
Steward should be moved to 12 for Tigers.

Fair comments, I don't know the ins and outs of the indivudals well enough to mix and match.

To compare to Scotland again (only becuase Russell/Smith are of the same mould), the centre partnership has now meant that we can get Russell to do Russell-esque things with a bit less heat on him, Tuipilouto is a talented footballer who can mix it up with Finn, carries, loops, chips, it gives your 10 endless options to keep the opposition guessing.

England could do this, it would take some time to adjust the players to suit and requires giving your 10 the centres and full back he needs to utilise his creativity - 12 and 15 are the sticking points, get that sorted and either Ford or Smith are both capable of taking you places.

 

[higgik]

It's not so much about flair as intelligence imo. I think Smith might flourish alongside a second playmaker who is providing pace and space but not convinced he's the guy for the role.

Just look back 20 years to Robinson, Lewsey, Cohen.
3 great rugby brains.

 

[higgik]

Fair comments, I don't know the ins and outs of the indivudals well enough to mix and match.

To compare to Scotland again (only becuase Russell/Smith are of the same mould), the centre partnership has now meant that we can get Russell to do Russell-esque things with a bit less heat on him, Tuipilouto is a talented footballer who can mix it up with Finn, carries, loops, chips, it gives your 10 endless options to keep the opposition guessing.

England could do this, it would take some time to adjust the players to suit and requires giving your 10 the centres and full back he needs to utilise his creativity - 12 and 15 are the sticking points, get that sorted and either Ford or Smith are both capable of taking you places.

Both have Boks next to them for their clubs, who can mix it up, alongside 15s that can cut good lines.

 

[Arcturus]

Feel like Farrell is the ultimate yes man to the coaches,
Every coach who has ever been around him thinks he's the dogs ********, and I bet that's because he follows their plans to a T and gets everyone else buying into their ideas too
At Saracens he's got a gameplan fit for him, and the rest of the side also slots seamlessly into the gameplan, so it's very successful because he executes it perfectly

With England our gameplan is crap and he doesn't deviate because he's there to follow it and everyone else follows the captains lead

Don't think it's a fear thing, or anything, just a **** gameplan that we follow brainlessly

Can't remember his username (sorry!) but there was a Saracens fan on here yesterday, maybe day before, talking about England's gameplans and how he's shoehorning players in to his ideas rather than building ideas around the skillsets we have available

You don't get to play a pivotal role at Saracens and make the cut for England and the Lions by being a "yes" person, but by delivering results.

On the last Lions tour, Gatland asked the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English players to vote for a leadership group. Farrell came top. The dual idea that he isn't liked or doesn't perform doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It doesn't in anyway excuse the poor tackle at the weekend, but he is going to be missed.

On a side note about Saracens' game plan, they start with one, but when things aren't going right, they fall back on the devolved structure of several on-the-pitch lieutenants to make changes at the coal face. It isn't a fluke that so many former Sarries players end up in a coaching capacity at a high level. Which is why Borthwick and Wigglesworth have been a bit disappointing because they seem to have regressed and are far too focused on rigid plans.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Game notes from first three minutes. Haven't watched second.

Farrell free kicks a bomb into wales 22. Somehow wales bobbled it so they can't mark. Screw it up even more and England gets the ball.

After this Farrell kicks a grubber into in-goal. Goal line dropout.

Poor execution followed by bad idea.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Surely we'd need to know what was supposed to have said before we can judge whether it crossed a line and is anything other than a false-equivalence.

Or did I miss the bit in the article - so many ad.s to scroll past


ETA: Ah, I see, it's the tweet, rather than the article - my phone browser doesn't show tweets, so I went straight to Wales Online, and thus completely missed the joke.

Seems like like you went straight to the joke

 

[davvos]

Wales Online reporting that Farrell's red card has been overturned and he's free to play immediately?

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Utterly farcical decision by the disciplinary panel.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hahahahahahahahahah what an absolute joke
Genuinely insane decision

 

[MattGaff]

0 weeks. Red card rescinded. Rugby Union has hit a new rock bottom!!