England vs Fiji 26th August 23

[Welsh Exile]

Wales should be getting worried

I don't think you need to tell many Welsh people to start worrying. They've been doing that for a while. We've also got Georgia in our group who I'm sure I don't need to remind you we lost to last time we played. I think our WC opener against Fiji will be a 1 score game but wouldn't be surprised to see us lose by more to be honest.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, they're prefacing their criticism with "He's a golden human being....but"

He seems a good egg, but he's our defence coach and our defence sucks so criticism will be coming his way. Like most of the rest of our coaching team he's woefully under qualified for his role.

Borthwick wasn't handed the easiest task but it feels like he's accelerating towards the wall and he's now overseen defeat by a tier 2 nation at HQ and our biggest ever points loss there. Added to everything else, if that's not making his position untenable I don't know what is. It just feels like a matter of when, post RWC.

Will also be surprised if the Marler head incident isn't looked at more closely.

 

[SG59_]

I think Wales can beat Georgia going by todays match. They ran out of steam today against Scotland and I can't see Gatland standing for that in his teams. If you swapped England and Wales groups, I don't think England would do any better tbh.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't see Gatland standing for that in his teams

They've gotta cycle off their PEDs now that Webb has blown the whistle though,
They're gonna deflate and get out of breath jogging out for the anthems

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

He seems a good egg, but he's our defence coach and our defence sucks so criticism will be coming his way. Like most of the rest of our coaching team he's woefully under qualified for his role.

Borthwick wasn't handed the easiest task but it feels like he's accelerating towards the wall and he's now overseen defeat by a tier 2 nation at HQ and our biggest ever points loss there. Added to everything else, if that's not making his position untenable I don't know what is. It just feels like a matter of when, post RWC.

Will also be surprised if the Marler head incident isn't looked at more closely.

So with sinfield in particular I just get a really weird feeling he shouldn't be in charge of a system at an elite level yet. Clearly at a great sportsman, a good guy, and is probably pretty smart. The issue is has anyone taught him how to be a coach? I feel he needs to be grinding under some more experienced coaches first.

 

[SG59_]

They've gotta cycle off their PEDs now that Webb has blown the whistle though,
They're gonna deflate and get out of breath jogging out for the anthems

Imagine if it turned out England were on them during the match today. I'd want my money back

 

[West Country Wail]

Isn't that just how hype works nowadays? The media tell you who to play and and who to coach and then crucify them. Everyone keeps clicking.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I have intentionally not been watching England vs Wales, so my thoughts may be out of date on England

- Scrum half Mitchell(?) taking his chance a little more than others I've seen in the past 12 months (who I found deeply unconvincing)
- Smith and Ford on park at same time has potential and probably essential if Slade isn't playing
- combine above with straightforward tactics we saw from Fiji today and England could get back to being a more respectable 5th best in the world in short order

All conditional on the rest of the team having any ability to execute at all (which may be asking too much under Borthwick).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

From a player pov this coaching team is extremely likeable I feel.

I think that's half the pressure is that these players have no confidence, but have a lot of pressure to perform to keep their coaches jobs.

Sinfield was obviously out of depth to anyone who watched tigers the start of last season, but the media hyped him and the whole tigers coaching staff way too soon. Said at the time Sinfield was the only coach I didn't mind tigers losing.

 

[AlRums]

Imagine if it turned out England were on them during the match today. I'd want my money back

And compensation

 

[OllyM97]

I'm not even angry anymore. We played to our "new" normal level today. I just expect us to be abysmal now. How far we have fallen in the last 4 years is absolutely disgraceful. Whether you liked Eddie or not, the fact of the matter is that 6 months before a World Cup, we got rid of an experienced, top class coach and replaced him with a coach who has only been a head coach at club level for two years. Borthwick has been set up to fail by the incompetents that are above him.

However, Borthwick has had 9 games now and I don't see any signs of a definitive shape or structure. What are we actually trying to do, what is our style of play?. We don't know our best team, even our set piece is wobbly and our backs at times don't look like they've met each other. It's depressing. I don't see us getting out of the group, our confidence is shot.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So with sinfield in particular I just get a really weird feeling he shouldn't be in charge of a system at an elite level yet. Clearly at a great sportsman, a good guy, and is probably pretty smart. The issue is has anyone taught him how to be a coach? I feel he needs to be grinding under some more experienced coaches first.

And he's only been in union for 2 years.

 

[TW27BA]

I'm even more depressed after today's sh*t show. Absolutely no progress shown in these warm up games and the whole set up seems bereft of any clear plan.
I have serious doubts England can even get out of the qualifying group such is the lack of progress since EJ left.
Borthwick might be a nice guy, but this job appears too big for him. The England RFU should have done everything they could to get Shaun Edwards and if SB fails badly we could be looking for another new head coach.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I do feel for pretty much all of the England staff because I don't really doubt that they could all become excellent coaches. But they're all a long way off it right now.

 

[Becca]

Embarrassingly, I was sent an email from England whilst I was watching the game. It proclaimed England win ! Have 20 percent off a £60 at the RFU Store. Later this evening they sent an apology email……

 

[TopTen2003]

I do feel for pretty much all of the England staff because I don't really doubt that they could all become excellent coaches. But they're all a long way off it right now.

In time there's a good chance.

Problem is they're not the right people for this situation are they and they need people to call it out and take them out of the firing line.

I'm more disappointed with our senior players.

How on Earth are they accepting these standards and plans.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm more disappointed with our senior players.

How on Earth are they accepting these standards and plans.

That's what Hartley was saying post match, either they're all singing from the same songsheet or they know somethings wrong but are just nodding along anyway

 

[Lé Ddanno]

From a player pov this coaching team is extremely likeable I feel.

I think that's half the pressure is that these players have no confidence, but have a lot of pressure to perform to keep their coaches jobs.

If by likable you mean 'doesn't shout at anyone' then sure, but I doubt any of the players enjoy being coached to 6 losses in 9 games, including both the first ever loss to Fiji, and France smashing in 52 points, both at home. The team can all **** off back to Tigers, frankly. It's for the coaches to keep their jobs, not the players.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If by likable you mean 'doesn't shout at anyone' then sure, but I doubt any of the players enjoy being coached to 6 losses in 9 games, including both the first ever loss to Fiji, and France smashing in 52 points, both at home. The team can all **** off back to Tigers, frankly. It's for the coaches to keep their jobs, not the players.

I mean, plenty of Leicester players spoke out back when Sinfield was coaching them about how inspiring he was. And I don't doubt that for a second; he's an incredibly inspiring bloke who I'm sure the players all like very much for reasons besides that he 'doesn't shout at them'. Unfortunately being likeable/inspiring doesn't translate directly to being a good coach.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I mean, plenty of Leicester players spoke out back when Sinfield was coaching them about how inspiring he was. And I don't doubt that for a second; he's an incredibly inspiring bloke who I'm sure the players all like very much for reasons besides that he 'doesn't shout at them'. Unfortunately being likeable/inspiring doesn't translate directly to being a good coach.

Which is absolutely my point