Ireland v England - 19 August 2023

[LIONSxv]

The RFU need to be talking to Edwards and Lancaster now. Edwards Head coach , Lancaster head of rugby
Edwards would not tolerate meaningless kicking, passive carrying, inaccuracy at the ruck. They would ship up or out

The players look devoid of confidence, but seemingly passion or even desire

He has turned the French into world beaters within a wc a cycle and they all but refused to defend over the past decade!!

 

[higgik]

Something that commentators mentioned in both the Wales games was Borthwick saying he wanted England to manage at least 1000 kicking metres per match. I don't have the context for the original statement, but on the surface there's a kind of logic to it. His teams averaged that at Tigers, France won the 2022 Grand Slam with the most kicking metres, New Zealand won the 2022 Championship with most kicks from hand... As Crash Hamster mentions, the statistics back it up.

But I worry that Borthwick is falling prey to Goodhart's Law here: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

Kicking was a huge part of France's Grand Slam, but they didn't win because they kicked the most. They won because they kicked really, really, well, and as a consequence had the highest kicking metres.

England's kicking, by contrast, is rubbish. From the Ireland game: on our kick chases we rarely manage to compete, or even to tackle the receiver. Loads of clearing kicks and kicks for territory are going very centrally with no pressure, giving the opponents a good attacking platform. I don't remember any of England's kicks finding grass, which probably means we're not dragging their back three out of position (kind of makes sense given how predictable our attacks were).

There were a few times where we managed to drop one in a good spot and smash the receiver/pressure the return kick, but they were few and far between.

So I imagine SB is persisting with kicking because it's a key part of how all the best teams attack. The problem is we suck at it

So true.
And more to point we play Daly on the wing, who is not known as a kick chase specialist.
Seems like he is falling between 2 plans, kick chase and strike moves.
All of which is confusing.
If he really believes kick chase is best then play 2 wingers who chase well, May for one, Arundell, Murley, Freeman to name a few.
But instead we have Malins, Watson and Daly, who are all playmakers, setting up as playing through the hands.

 

[Saintjay]

The RFU need to be talking to Edwards and Lancaster now. Edwards Head coach , Lancaster head of rugby
Edwards would not tolerate meaningless kicking, passive carrying, inaccuracy at the ruck. They would ship up or out

The players look devoid of confidence, but seemingly passion or even desire

He has turned the French into world beaters within a wc a cycle and they all but refused to defend over the past decade!!

Hasn't Lancaster just gone to France? Can't see him coming back after just committing to Racing 92.

Edwards might consider it but the amount of times he's either been ignored or messed about by the RFU not sure why he'd bother other than the money on offer. It'll take some dollar to get him back in.

 

[LIONSxv]

Hasn't Lancaster just gone to France? Can't see him coming back after just committing to Racing 92.

Edwards might consider it but the amount of times he's either been ignored or messed about by the RFU not sure why he'd bother other than the money on offer. It'll take some dollar to get him back in.

Yes it will take money for both

However the millions they will loose in lost marketing, TV and gate receipts should England continue with their current track will dwarf this amount

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Edwards might consider it but the amount of times he's either been ignored or messed about by the RFU not sure why he'd bother other than the money on offer. It'll take some dollar to get him back in.

I think he'd take it if offered, he said in an interview on BT Sport before that he wants to coach England
Even with all the BS surrounding it I think that coaching your home country is going to be something that all coaches aspire to at some point in their career
I'm interested to see what Farrell does post Ireland - I imagine Lions in 2025, but then what?
Maybe he'll go back to Saracens for a bit? I think he'll want the England job at some point too

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

The RFU need to be talking to Edwards and Lancaster now. Edwards Head coach , Lancaster head of rugby
Edwards would not tolerate meaningless kicking, passive carrying, inaccuracy at the ruck. They would ship up or out

The players look devoid of confidence, but seemingly passion or even desire

He has turned the French into world beaters within a wc a cycle and they all but refused to defend over the past decade!!

Edwards might come to the RFU, after the RWC. Lancaster & Faz snr have never indicated any appetite to return to England, and they both have unpleasant memories of being hounded out after 2015.
Faz was asked the question in an interview last year and his answer was on the lines of "Why would I?". His younger kid(s) are settled in Dublin. Even if Ireland suffers because of the draw, there's no appetite at the IRFU for change. David Nucifora is expected to return to Australia next year when his contract expires, so if anything, the IRFU will favour continuity while his replacement is bedded in.

 

[Amiga500]

It's the statistics.

They suggest that teams which kick the ball away win more games.

It is, of course, misleading.

Not misleading, just misinterpreted.

They don't win games just by kicking the ball*. There is a lot of work done pre and post the kick that turns it from giving away possession to a weapon in its own right.

*would need to clarify that its almost certainly not by kicking the ball away either!


The only team that I know that could reliably create an attacking platform from kicking the ball away was Munster. That's 'cos big John Hayes could one-man lift Paul O'Connell so they'd be able to have 2 jumpers in a 5 man lineout. That's serious pressure on the defensive throw. Everytime.

 

[LIONSxv]

Edwards might come to the RFU, after the RWC. Lancaster & Faz snr have never indicated any appetite to return to England, and they both have unpleasant memories of being hounded out after 2015.
Faz was asked the question in an interview last year and his answer was on the lines of "Why would I?". His younger kid(s) are settled in Dublin. Even if Ireland suffers because of the draw, there's no appetite at the IRFU for change. David Nucifora is expected to return to Australia next year when his contract expires, so if anything, the IRFU will favour continuity while his replacement is bedded in.

I didn't mention Farrel

 

[BrokenWing]

The only team that I know that could reliably create an attacking platform from kicking the ball away was Munster.

Or any team playing England right now.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

I didn't mention Farrel

True,but there's a good reason that his views will reflect those of Lancaster, who you did mention.

 

[Jimbo]

So true.
And more to point we play Daly on the wing, who is not known as a kick chase specialist.
Seems like he is falling between 2 plans, kick chase and strike moves.
All of which is confusing.
If he really believes kick chase is best then play 2 wingers who chase well, May for one, Arundell, Murley, Freeman to name a few.
But instead we have Malins, Watson and Daly, who are all playmakers, setting up as playing through the hands.

Daly was at one point exceptionally good on the kick chase, Wasps used it as a huge weapon off of restarts, where he has struggled is defending them.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

I think he'd take it if offered, he said in an interview on BT Sport before that he wants to coach England
Even with all the BS surrounding it I think that coaching your home country is going to be something that all coaches aspire to at some point in their career
I'm interested to see what Farrell does post Ireland - I imagine Lions in 2025, but then what?
Maybe he'll go back to Saracens for a bit? I think he'll want the England job at some point too

Farrell's big problem is they won't want him managing his son so until he is out of the picture he won't be given the England job.

 

[BrokenWing]

Farrell's big problem is they won't want him managing his son so until he is out of the picture he won't be given the England job.

Why? They were happy enough with him coaching his son... unless you think they've actually learned from that...

 

[Jimbo]

The RFU need to be talking to Edwards and Lancaster now. Edwards Head coach , Lancaster head of rugby
Edwards would not tolerate meaningless kicking, passive carrying, inaccuracy at the ruck. They would ship up or out

The players look devoid of confidence, but seemingly passion or even desire

He has turned the French into world beaters within a wc a cycle and they all but refused to defend over the past decade!!

not convinced Lancaster & Edwards are compatible, Edwards '****** smash em boys, smash em' whilst Lancaster would be trying to improve their table manners and who knows what, almost opposite.

 

[Groundhog]

Fair play to English fans who in an upresidented development have topped the list of English Rugby's biggest haters for the first time, beating out the Welsh and Scots

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

not convinced Lancaster & Edwards are compatible, Edwards '****** smash em boys, smash em' whilst Lancaster would be trying to improve their table manners and who knows what, almost opposite.

Good cop bad cop. Calm officer with the shouting NCO. It's a fairly common dynamic. At the moment though I think what the players need is someone who will give them a real kick up the backside and get them putting effort in again. These players have shown previously they can perform, it's not like they are incapable of it and how they are performing now is not even remotely reflective of how they play at their clubs.

 

[LIONSxv]

True,but there's a good reason that his views will reflect those of Lancaster, who you did mention.

Not sure that's how it works. They are after all different people. Farrell Snr is the head coach and also has his son as an underperforming captain. Far easier for Lancaster to slot into a head technical role than Farrell to jump as head coach

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Why? They were happy enough with him coaching his son... unless you think they've actually learned from that...

Because the coach doesn't have the final say.

 

[BrokenWing]

So you think in a discussion between Lancaster and Farrell, Lancaster would get his way?