England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[higgik]

Smith just needs the right supporting cast....and a proper 12.

I've seen him put some brilliant controlling games In for Quins...so hes very capable. Just needs to be given the shirt and let him to it. Fin Smith off the bench...

Theres a number of players who haven't earned that shirt this Autumn...and aside from getting the defence sorted SB is going to to have to get his squad and match day team selection spot on for the 6n....

What about the other way round.
Fin to start, Marcus on bench as he can cover FB as well if needed.

 

[BPM]

What is the fascination with swapping the Smiths? It blows my mind.

There are very few positives to take from England this year but Marcus Smith is surely one of them? While I acknowledge my Quins bias here, I think it's factually accurate to say he has been the architect of (or at the very least heavily involved with) anything good we've done.

I'd actually like Finn to start next weekend as I think it's vital that we start building his experience. However, Marcus is rightly ahead as the starter and I find it truly bizarre that his place is questioned so often.

 

[OllyM97]

What is the fascination with swapping the Smiths? It blows my mind.

There are very few positives to take from England this year but Marcus Smith is surely one of them? While I acknowledge my Quins bias here, I think it's factually accurate to say he has been the architect of (or at the very least heavily involved with) anything good we've done.

I'd actually like Finn to start next weekend as I think it's vital that we start building his experience. However, Marcus is rightly ahead as the starter and I find it truly bizarre that his place is questioned so often.

M Smith is literally the only player we have that keeps defenders guessing and has any variety in his game. Yes he's not perfect but I think he's doing as well as he can with the lack of momentum generated from around him.

 

[BPM]

My patience is wearing very thin after yesterday. South Africa were very average and tried everything they could to let us back into that game. I'm fed up of people fawning over the opposition when we lose. That 10 minutes when we had the man advantage was just embarrassing. How many times did we get turned over at the ruck?. Why were we still still going with one out runners when the space was clearly on the outside?. Where is the deception in our attack - there isn't any. Our bench yet again offered virtually nothing, we've got the worst bench of any of the big sides. I'm not having the "it was the World Champions" rubbish, there should be accountability for a performance like that - we should have won that game, they were there for the taking. If we actually had a coherent plan on how to attack we win that game definitely. How can you be so poor in attack after 20 odd games?. Game after game we fade in the final quarter and yet we put the same players on the bench every week. It's just absolutely shambolic. Borthwick has had 27 games and won 13 - against Wales (x3), Italy (x2), Argentina before Contepomi (x2), Japan (x2), Chile, Samoa, Fiji and Ireland. Bar that one-off against the Irish he's lost every game against good sides. If we were playing the Pumas next week we'd get beat 100%.

Last but not least, how atrocious was our defence yesterday?. Every try that the Boks scored was completely gifted by us. The Williams and both Kolbe ones were absolutely hideous defence that Amateur players would be disappointed about. If you can't defend properly and you can't make good reads under pressure then you shouldn't be an international player. As for the charge-down try - pathetic. Etzebeth had a field day yesterday.

Anyway onto the 6N where we'll finish 3rd or 4th but don't worry because we're "getting there". Shambles.

I get it. I have lots of gripes but the biggest one is that we were starting to look quite good in NZ and it feels like we've gone backwards at a rate of knots.

One obvious conclusion is that losing Jones and Walters has had a massively detrimental effect on a number of key areas. Defence has been shocking. I find it a bit harsh blaming El Abd when he's been in post for 3 games, but beyond that, a blitz style defence needs the players to be super fit and it looks as though we are some way short of the physical capacity required. That double whammy has been a killer.

What I can't explain though is the 'attack'. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I don't recall us going through more than about 6 phases with the exception of the pick and goes for Slade's disallowed try. We're almost entirely reliant on moments of magic from Marcus Smith. Good bits of individual play are not the same as a good attack. When nothing has changed in that department and the personnel (barring Mitchell) are the same, it seems odd for it have regressed so badly. That is on Wigglesworth.

 

[BPM]

M Smith is literally the only player we have that keeps defenders guessing and has any variety in his game. Yes he's not perfect but I think he's doing as well as he can with the lack of momentum generated from around him.

Yep. I've lost count of the amount of times has he got a bad pass behind the gainline because the scrum was a mess or the lineout drill wasn't as slick as needed to be. We either lose ground or he has to try something off the cuff.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Fortunately had to miss the second half last night as a curry was calling, but it seems nothing new or unpredictable happened.

From what I saw, Stuart was unlucky to be penalised two or three times. England would have been much better all AI series with more Lozowski and Underhill; probably with more Hill (T) on the bench, too.

I suspect good coaching involves empowering good players to make good decisions at good times; poor coaching involves expecting players to do something which isn't instinctive, in response to some sort of pre-decided cookie-cutter plan. The latter leads to players taking a fraction of a second to process what the plan says and therefore making mistakes.

 

[Geordie]

What about the other way round.
Fin to start, Marcus on bench as he can cover FB as well if needed.

I'd stick with Marcus and Fin off the bench.

Give Marcus a better platform and a proper 12 and you'll see a difference.

 

[Geordie]

Agree about Genge. All a lot of huff and puff.

Stuart ironically has improved from poor to having a solid Autumn. But imo he's still a stop gap until the next Gen finally come through. Heyes and Fordjour playing today will be interesting in relation to Japan next week.

Agree on Jamie George. He's genuinely pedestrian compared to the likes of Langdon etc ..so I don't get it now. So many top teams have explosive players and ours too often don't look it.

George Martin another. Coming on great but I want to see much more explosive carrying. He made one yesterday where he carried about 3 boks 10m back ..we need that more consistently.

Ill say again...Chessum (and probably Alex Coles) unavailable were blows. Chessum starts at 6 and your bringing a fired up CCS on 50 mins suddenly there's some impact.
As it is..CCS has now 3 more games against 3 of the best under his belt and shown he's a very capable Lineout option at this level.
And Hill in place of Dombrandt yet more impact ..

Tom Willis another who needs to be looked at.

 

[BPM]

I forget who posted about Borthwick investing in the wrong senior players, specifically referencing George. He isn't the best in his position anymore. However, when leadership seems to be massively lacking across the squad, it's not that hard to see why he's been retained. Also, when you throw the baby out with the bathwater and make wholesale changes, you just end up in the painful rebuilding phase Gatland's Welsh team are in. No England coach would be given the time/grace period needed to pull that off. Ironically, half the people on here calling for wild change would also be among the first to call for the coaches head after a few defeats.

Willis and Hill should have been in the main squad from the get go. It's simply inexplicable that they were ignored. Beyond that, I don't feel selection is really that far off. It just doesn't seem to translate to a good team on the park.

Heyes should feel a little hard done by for not making the senior squad despite being in much better form than when he was in it! Hopefully the A game is a great opportunity to lay down a marker and allow Cole to pick up his pension.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah he's so overrated. Steward was hopeless for the first try but the 9 went past Genge like he wasn't there in the first place.

TBF Williams is faster than either Kolbe or Arendse. I think Fassi has the best time over 100m but for the burst and say 40 or 60m Williams is the quickest in our squad. He makes those types of break every other game.

 

[BrokenWing]

Heard SB say he left Marcus on because he was playing well… I really wanted the interviewer to say "well why did you take him off against NZ then?"

Ultimately though, when he says they're learning that must be what he means.. I mean, I'd hope for him to learn a lot quicker than this but I suppose he's right in a way.

 

[mkersyshull]

What is the fascination with swapping the Smiths? It blows my mind.

There are very few positives to take from England this year but Marcus Smith is surely one of them? While I acknowledge my Quins bias here, I think it's factually accurate to say he has been the architect of (or at the very least heavily involved with) anything good we've done.

I'd actually like Finn to start next weekend as I think it's vital that we start building his experience. However, Marcus is rightly ahead as the starter and I find it truly bizarre that his place is questioned so often.

I could see both Smith's on the field next week with Marcus at 15

 

[BPM]

Maybe, but Marcus isn't a fullback so I don't really see the benefit. It might be fine playing him there against Japan, but it's never going to be a solution against the better sides which makes it a bit of a pointless exercise. I'd much rather see Finn at 10 with Furbank back at 15. Way more of an upside IMO.

 

[BrokenWing]

The Smiths picked by This Charming Man of a head coach.

 

[BPM]

Well it does feel like a bit like we're a 'punctured bicycle on a hillside desolate'.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Maybe, but Marcus isn't a fullback so I don't really see the benefit. It might be fine playing him there against Japan, but it's never going to be a solution against the better sides which makes it a bit of a pointless exercise. I'd much rather see Finn at 10 with Furbank back at 15. Way more of an upside IMO.

Marcus is a sub-par athlete. Sticking him at fullback exposes his defensive issues and doesn't allow his offensive game to resonate as well.

 

[BPM]

'Sub par athlete' … Right … OK. I agree it 'exposes' him defence, but I think that's more a case of playing out of position. He's not used to defending at 15 so it's not overly surprising it shows.

Why move him at all?

 

[Tighthead&blindside]

England should have kicked to wing. S.A. have no height on the wings, Steward or Freeman would have dominated that battle. We just went for one out ball all the time which is a waste of energy. The Boks were very beatable yesterday. If it was my decision to make I would say the 6N is the last chance for Borthers. I am so excited to see these young players that are waiting in the wings. The next world cup is an opportunity for us but we are wasting time st the moment.

 

[AlRums]

Smith just needs the right supporting cast....and a proper 12.

I've seen him put some brilliant controlling games In for Quins...so hes very capable. Just needs to be given the shirt and let him to it. Fin Smith off the bench...

Theres a number of players who haven't earned that shirt this Autumn...and aside from getting the defence sorted SB is going to to have to get his squad and match day team selection spot on for the 6n....

Bring back Farrell?

 

[BrokenWing]

Bring back Farrell?