England v New Zealand

[TRF C A Iversen]

Sam you are the ultimate fence sitter.

Still he's basically correct (with exception to the adjectives used to classify each player, they're a bit more distinctive than that). All three of those players could have their day over each other. Sitting on the fence is a bit better than coming down off it when there's no definite right side to come down to.

 

[eot345]

As someone who plays in the front row, I can tell you that the penalties given to the All Blacks were guess work at best. Please try and type like you're not an idiot.

i also play in the front row and i believe england were the stronger scrummaging side they kept popping mealamu's head up and cole was destructive

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

Ok, a few musings;

After twenty minutes I was fearful for something of a mauling which never quite materialised. England simply missed too many tackles which led to two clinical tries. With twenty minutes to go, it felt as though England mght snatch something undeserved...I feel if the roles had been reversed then NZ would have stolen something from the game - they were just a little bit better all round really. Two obvious examples: Ashton couldn't stop Gear in the corner, yet Toeva mauled Hape into spilling it. Not a huge margin of difference, but it made all the difference.

Easter had a good game but I'm not sure what he was doing with the two kicks nearing touch. Surely he was in enough space to sort those out? Apart from that, excellent. Flood and Youngs are a good pair, as are Ashton and Foden. With Cole/Thompson in the front row I'm not worried about scrumtime, but I was disappointed with the lineout. Really disappointed. Didn't see enough of Lawes, Croft to really go on but they weren't sparkling as much as the hype - a long way to go yet.

NZ impressed me. Looked a decent side and fronted up well. Carter's kicking was exceptional and they looked massively busy in the tackle compared to England. Just wish Hape had nailed that corner, even if we'd still have lost it would have been nice to register a score in that last ten. In reality England were fortunate with the one try we got, so I think 26-16 was a fair reflection.

 

[Black Heart]

I, and many others (including the odd Irish person), would say Conrad Smith is far and away the best center in the world at the moment. He has the best rugby brain around. I have the feelling you like players who are 6'5, 100+ kg and fancy. Fact of the matter is, Smith doesn't make a mistake, ever. Last time Brain O'Driscoll and Smith met earlier in the year, Smith showed how good he is. To say he is only as good as he is because of Nonu is idiotic.

And there would be just as many who would argue otherwise. But it's a matter of opinion.

To correct your asssumption, I prefer centres in the likes of Umaga, Mortlock, Bunce etc. These players are the epitome of what a centre should be. Again, I never said Smith wasn't good. And yes, he rarely does anything wrong, but rarely does he do anything outstanding either.

I said without Nonu inside him his game is very different. Which is true. Both he and Nonu play well together and they are there for the combination factor.

 

[Black Heart]

Still he's basically correct (with exception to the adjectives used to classify each player, they're a bit more distinctive than that). All three of those players could have their day over each other. Sitting on the fence is a bit better than coming down off it when there's no definite right side to come down to.

I have to agree.

 

[Peat]

I personally think Smith is the best 13 in the world at the moment, and the choice come the World Cup will be Nonu/Williams and Smith. But I'd love to be having this argument about English players.

 

[TVH11]

Watching the highlights now and seems as if it was an exiting game to watch, both sides seem to play quite quick rugby. I knew England would put up a good game (although everyone in cardiff thought they wouldn't). I guess everyones already asked/mentioned but how did Sonny Bill play?? seen a few one handed passes (1 for opening try) but in general is he living up to the hype?? looks quite exiting

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I guess everyones already asked/mentioned but how did Sonny Bill play?? seen a few one handed passes (1 for opening try) but in general is he living up to the hype?? looks quite exiting

In a word: No.

HOWEVER (before I get my head ripped off) he had a good debut, as good as any player can expect.
He's hyped as the best thing ever, and many expected/wanted him to tear England a new one. He had a decent debut, a few little slipups but you'd expect that from anyone. Wasn't the best on the pitch, wasn't the worst on the pitch.
I think he should be proud with how he played, he was targeted whenever he got the ball but held up to it well (having Hape/Tindall coming at you everytime you touch the ball could put a fair few players off!) - I read an interview where he said he wasn't happy/felt he could've done better. This just shows he wants to improve, and that's a good thing.

 

[Intercept King JDV]

All Black Mealamu cited for headbutt

All Black Hooker Keven Mealamu has been cited for a headbutt on an England player and could be ruled out of the rest of New Zealand's end of year tour.

An official press release states that in Saturday's clash between England and the All Blacks Mealamu has been cited by the IRB appointed Citing Commissioner John West (Ireland) for striking with the head.

Mealamu's actions are in contravention of Law 10.4a and he could miss the rest of the All Blacks Grand Slam tour.

South African lock Bakkies Botha was cited and then banned earlier this year for nine-weeks after he headbutted the New Zealand scrum-half Jimmy Cowan.

Mealamu does however have a much better track record than Botha so his record would be taken into account.

Source

Would you believe it, for the 1st time in how many weeks Bakkies Botha behaves himself ,doesn't get a yellow card or something but he still gets named in an article about head-butting and citings:lol:

But anycase, how long do you guys think Mealamu will get banned for?
3-5 weeks?
That was just plain stupidity form ol' Keven

 

[Peat]

Am slightly surprised Dylan's not joining him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Seems that Hartleys got away with his shoulder on McCaw then, deserved to be cited if Mealamu was


In other news, Ben Franks has had to return to NZ, with Neemia Tialata called up to take his place

 

[Shaggy]

And there would be just as many who would argue otherwise. But it's a matter of opinion.

To correct your asssumption, I prefer centres in the likes of Umaga, Mortlock, Bunce etc. These players are the epitome of what a centre should be. Again, I never said Smith wasn't good. And yes, he rarely does anything wrong, but rarely does he do anything outstanding either.

I said without Nonu inside him his game is very different. Which is true. Both he and Nonu play well together and they are there for the combination factor.

I'm not sure if Smith is the best 13 in the world, but he's certainly up there. He's definitely the best all round All Black Centre IMO, good defense, a different type of attack, but makes the metres, scores tries, gets a lot of turn over ball, and I believe that he's the fittest back in the beep test.

I agree with your comment about combinations - for me that's probably more crucial then individual ability. Frank Bunce said he always played better with Walter Little, than any other 12. I believe that the Nonu & Smith combination will remain the first choice one (barring injuries). SBW will probably be used as the first choice replacement eventually, and as such, should get some game time with Smith soon.

In a word: No.

HOWEVER (before I get my head ripped off) he had a good debut, as good as any player can expect.
He's hyped as the best thing ever, and many expected/wanted him to tear England a new one. He had a decent debut, a few little slipups but you'd expect that from anyone. Wasn't the best on the pitch, wasn't the worst on the pitch.
I think he should be proud with how he played, he was targeted whenever he got the ball but held up to it well (having Hape/Tindall coming at you everytime you touch the ball could put a fair few players off!) - I read an interview where he said he wasn't happy/felt he could've done better. This just shows he wants to improve, and that's a good thing.

Couldn't agree more ... I think he did some things well, made a few mistakes, didn't do anything too flashy, and had a relatively solid debut

... In short, it was what I hoped for/expected - plenty to improve on, and i'm sure he'll get better.

Source

Would you believe it, for the 1st time in how many weeks Bakkies Botha behaves himself ,doesn't get a yellow card or something but he still gets named in an article about head-butting and citings:lol:

But anycase, how long do you guys think Mealamu will get banned for?
3-5 weeks?
That was just plain stupidity form ol' Keven

Couldn't agree more - especially as we are a bit thin on experienced fit hookers at the moment. Foul play is foul play, and I hope the punishment is consistent (assuming he's found guilty) ... I guess Hika Elliot will finally get some game time

 

[Sam Owen]

Sam you are the ultimate fence sitter.

What can you do when your team (MANU SAMOA) is not playing?...

What do you think I should do lynam lol?..I have honest opinions to share as well..

I rest my case.

 

[Larksea]

It's strange Mealamu's going up and Dylan's not, seem like very similar incidents given Dylan's hit on McCaw looks much more deliberate as well.

Mealamu's head butt wasn't much but it was something - very out of character for Mealamu, I can't imagine him getting too much of a ban. He has afterall been pretty much squeeky clean for 80 odd tests.

The scrum battle seemed strange to me. The AB's looked to have the stronger scrum early on. Their own scrums were solid and the english scrums were messy.

There was one scrum in particular where the AB's got the hit and were pushing the english back but the AB's got penilised for coming up in the front row? Another one that went down when the AB's were going forwards and the AB's were penalised? Always seems strange to me when the scrum that wins the hit and goes forward gets panalised for going up or down. Because they've no reason to do that if they are going forward.

Then there were two scrums close together first one WAS AB's feed it came up and was just reset. then soon after another scrum with english feed the exact same thing happened but the Ref awarded a penalty to the english?

Interesting game, After the AB's scrored those two trys it looked like the english had run themselves out of the game after their fast start but they stayed in it and the AB's lost shape a bit.

The AB's hero's from the first half were Gear & Kaino who were involved in both trys. Then Kaino had a bad 2nd half and Gear sort of went missing - his workrate seemed pretty bad compared to Rokocoko in particular, Mills as well.

I would have liked to have seen Messam on for Kaino in the 2nd half. Elliot on for Mealamu for the last 20 or so and Elis to stay on the bench.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the quality of the Ball the AB's got when Elis replaced Mathewson went down hill big time. Mathewson was impressive I thought - looked very composed and created good ball.

I thought Whitelock had a good game, stole some english ball in the lineout and got in their way at the rucks too. And being so fit and fast his workrate is always right up there.

Some bad AD's mistakes in the last 10min, stupid penalty & Card from Kaino. A Mills kick for touch that was a mirror image of donalds kick the week before and a carter 22 kick off that just went straight into touch. But I guess they are only noteworthy when donald makes those mistakes.

On the flip side that try saver from Toeava was brilliant. huge sholder hit and still managed to make sure there was some arm in it to save the TMO awarding a penalty/penalty try to england. his performance for me is more evidence for me that he seems much more at home in the back 3 than mid field in test rugby.

Thought the english were pretty lucky with that try of thiers, ref missed a few things but the english 14 was way off side... All in all they were improved though, they were much more interesting to watch.

 

[Nate Dizzle]

And there would be just as many who would argue otherwise. But it's a matter of opinion.

To correct your asssumption, I prefer centres in the likes of Umaga, Mortlock, Bunce etc. These players are the epitome of what a centre should be. Again, I never said Smith wasn't good. And yes, he rarely does anything wrong, but rarely does he do anything outstanding either.

I said without Nonu inside him his game is very different. Which is true. Both he and Nonu play well together and they are there for the combination factor.

I think this article pretty much sums up the Nonu/Smith relationship and centres dilemma pretty well. Pretty clear like players just don't work as effectively as players who can compliment eachothers play. This is why Nonu and Williams will not be the World cup pairing nor will Nonu/Fruen, Williams/Fruen unless the selectors are absolutely forced into it through injuries. Smith is far too valuable and none of the players mentioned can learn what Smith does in the time between now and the world cup. And this from your preferred centre of Bunce "I'm not sure who is best for who in that relationship but I would say that Ma'a plays better when Conrad is there".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10674445

 

[smartcooky]

Here's my view on some of the more contentious points from this test


Gear's Try
Some are arguing that this should have been ruled no try... wrong. The TMO must clearly see that the foot touched first. There was no doubt about the grounding, but the try will be given if there is doubt about the foot touching. The fact that no camera showed it means it was the correct call. For a call of no try, the TMO MUST see that the foot touched first, otherwise he's guessing. i.e. you make the call on what you actually see, not on what you don't see.

Hartly's try
This should have been ruled no try. He did not place the ball immediately, instead, he lifted his body up and tried to advance closer to the goal-line. The fact that his feet shot out from under him as he lunged forward proves this beyond any doubt. However, it should never have got that far. Ashton was 2m ahead of Foden's kick (and therefore offside), and SBW was blatantly taken out. Three critical errors by three officials.

Toeava Tackle
A contentious one, which on the Referees forum is divided mostly along "party" lines but with a couple of notable exceptions. Personally, I saw nothing wrong with it. That was just a routine tackle. You will see tackles just like that on Rugby Union fields on any given Saturday throughout New Zealand, Australia or South Africa. He approached the tackle with arms out in front, and attempted to grasp. Remember the Law says

LAW 10.4 (g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.

He doesn't have to succeed in grasping the player, he only has to try to grasp the player

I know exactly what would have happened to me had I started awarding penalty tries and yellow cards for tackles like this... I would be back refereeing JAB seven year-olds on half-pitches at 10am on Saturdays before you could say Match Assessor!!

Mealamu's moment of idiocy
Should be gone for the duration. It was a dumb thing to do. What did he think he was going achieve? Well I'll tell what I think he has achieved...
1. He has put pressure on his team-mates (they probably wont be allowed to replace him)
2. An early trip back to New Zealand.

The difference between Bakkies' and Keven's heat-butts? Not a lot really, however, Keven probably wont get 9 weeks. Bakkies is a serial thug with a proven record as a dirty player (he's the "Danny Grewcock of South Africa"), and that was his ninth career trip to the judiciary. However, this will be Mealamu's first after 82 matches (althought he probably should have fronted in 2005 and we all know why don't we?)

I reckon he'll get 4 to 6 weeks, and his tour will be over.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agree with everything you said smartcooky apart from SBW being taken down in the run up to Hartleys try,
I watched the clip a few times earlier, Cueto is chasing the kick and runs into the back of SBW who is turning around to chase (conveniantly across Cuetos path), SBW is caught off balance/Cueto tries to move round him and SBW goes down then Cueto trips over his body. He wasn't tackled/intentionally taken down (why would Cueto do that anyway? He was already running, SBW was stationary so probably would've beaten him in a footrace, and he was also the closest England player to the ball (apart from Ashton who was on the other side of several ABs so couldn't really be seen from where he was) so to dive onto SBW meant to lose the race for the ball. If anything SBW was blocking Cuetos run.
1min29s:

 

[Nate Dizzle]

Not such a bad thing if Mealamu's gone and Hore's back. Hore is the best rake in the country and will just lack fitness and obviously game time. Everyone seems to have forgotten him with the way Mealamu's been playing.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think this article pretty much sums up the Nonu/Smith relationship and centres dilemma pretty well. Pretty clear like players just don't work as effectively as players who can compliment eachothers play. This is why Nonu and Williams will not be the World cup pairing nor will Nonu/Fruen, Williams/Fruen unless the selectors are absolutely forced into it through injuries. Smith is far too valuable and none of the players mentioned can learn what Smith does in the time between now and the world cup. And this from your preferred centre of Bunce "I'm not sure who is best for who in that relationship but I would say that Ma'a plays better when Conrad is there".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10674445

Nonu and Smith are different to the usual pairings we've had in NZ in that the big ball runner is playing at 12, the distributor and link man playing at 13. Normally we've had the likes of Mauger/McAlister/Bruce/Stanley as a second five, with Umaga/Kahui/Muliaina/Toeava at centre, the ball runner.

 

[Larksea]

the nonu-Smith mid field is interesting for me. They seem to be servering the AB's well and defence is good most of the time.

I may be harsh, But neither of them have a real kicking game. Smith is vulnerable on defence against bigger players. maybe I'm nit picking.

IMO NZ's strongest midfield combination would be McAlister & Kahui if they were both fit and in good form. But both have had injury problems and McAlister has had problems re-capturing his best form. Though he did look very good for the Maori, I tend to think that if McAlister was fit he would do well in an AB jersey. And Kahui is one of those players that shines when he plays for the AB's - and he's got every skill in the book - speed, power, distribution, strong defence and a kicking game... Just can't seem to shake the damn sholder injuries. McAlister just needs to stop trying to tackle people using his Jaw.

I know smith has a repution as being a good defender but if I were an oposition coach playing the AB's one of the first things I would try would be to exploit conrad's defence by trying to isolate him 1 on 1 against a good sized back. Some times to me he does look like a kid playing with the big boys - kinda just hanging in there.