England v New Zealand

[TRF Mr Fish]

the nonu-Smith mid field is interesting for me. They seem to be servering the AB's well and defence is good most of the time.

I may be harsh, But neither of them have a real kicking game. Smith is vulnerable on defence against bigger players. maybe I'm nit picking.

IMO NZ's strongest midfield combination would be McAlister & Kahui if they were both fit and in good form. But both have had injury problems and McAlister has had problems re-capturing his best form. Though he did look very good for the Maori, I tend to think that if McAlister was fit he would do well in an AB jersey. And Kahui is one of those players that shines when he plays for the AB's - and he's got every skill in the book - speed, power, distribution, strong defence and a kicking game... Just can't seem to shake the damn sholder injuries. McAlister just needs to stop trying to tackle people using his Jaw.

I know smith has a repution as being a good defender but if I were an oposition coach playing the AB's one of the first things I would try would be to exploit conrad's defence by trying to isolate him 1 on 1 against a good sized back. Some times to me he does look like a kid playing with the big boys - kinda just hanging in there.

I disagree about Smith's defence, I don't think you'll see him miss too many tackles. However, some problems of his tackling style (very textbook, round the ankles, brings the player down) are that he's a bit useless when defending your own line, as players will fall forwards usually, even though clipped round the ankles - meaning although he may certainly stop the player from moving, he won't prevent a try. Likewise, he makes it very easy for players to offload, because he doesn't tie up their arms.

But I'd hardly say he's a bad tackler - he does the right thing considering his size and shape.

 

[Nate Dizzle]

I think Smith may be possibly the most under rated All Black in this forum. Or maybe I'm just a typical Canes fan... Naaah.

 

[Larksea]

I disagree about Smith's defence, I don't think you'll see him miss too many tackles. However, some problems of his tackling style (very textbook, round the ankles, brings the player down) are that he's a bit useless when defending your own line, as players will fall forwards usually, even though clipped round the ankles - meaning although he may certainly stop the player from moving, he won't prevent a try. Likewise, he makes it very easy for players to offload, because he doesn't tie up there arms.

But I'd hardly say he's a bad tackler - he does the right thing considering his size and shape.

Yeah I agree but you see the same problem that i've spotted. Go back to 2008 the loss to Aussie, aussie attacking the line and had an overlap conrad had to make a spot tackle on Ryan Cross. He ran up and grabbed cross around the feet. Cross just stood there threw a pass with conrad lookng up at him from the ground and aussie scored. Then in the comeback test in Auckland. The AB's won easy. But the only try Aussie scored was from mortlock running straight past conrad.

Dont get me wrong I really rate conrad, though his great momments are far between he does a lot of good things and often finds himself in great position on attack or defence and he does add some good balance to the backline. But I do see a weakness in his game and when he's marking a big 13 I worry he'll get exposed again.

 

[smartcooky]

Agree with everything you said smartcooky apart from SBW being taken down in the run up to Hartleys try,
I watched the clip a few times earlier, Cueto is chasing the kick and runs into the back of SBW who is turning around to chase (conveniantly across Cuetos path), SBW is caught off balance/Cueto tries to move round him and SBW goes down then Cueto trips over his body. He wasn't tackled/intentionally taken down (why would Cueto do that anyway? He was already running, SBW was stationary so probably would've beaten him in a footrace, and he was also the closest England player to the ball (apart from Ashton who was on the other side of several ABs so couldn't really be seen from where he was) so to dive onto SBW meant to lose the race for the ball. If anything SBW was blocking Cuetos run.

Yep, I stand corrected. TBH, I didn't really look all that closely. Ashton was well ahead of the kicker (Foden) and there is simply no excuse for referees at that level missing it. That was enough for me, but then to have the TMO award the try, it was a shocker.

The TMO, De Santis, is a Super 10 referee, and has never officiated above International Tier 3. What the hell was he doing as TMO of a Tier 1 international.. He should least have refereed Tier2 before being thrown in at the deep end.

 

[Sam Owen]

In other news, Ben Franks has had to return to NZ, with Neemia Tialata called up to take his place

Oh man thats dissapointing. I was beginning to enjoy Ben and his big hits. Hes got great technique on defence.

 

[Larksea]

I think it's mostly Owen who does the big hits.

 

[Nate Dizzle]

Yeah I agree but you see the same problem that i've spotted. Go back to 2008 the loss to Aussie, aussie attacking the line and had an overlap conrad had to make a spot tackle on Ryan Cross. He ran up and grabbed cross around the feet. Cross just stood there threw a pass with conrad lookng up at him from the ground and aussie scored. Then in the comeback test in Auckland. The AB's won easy. But the only try Aussie scored was from mortlock running straight past conrad.

Dont get me wrong I really rate conrad, though his great momments are far between he does a lot of good things and often finds himself in great position on attack or defence and he does add some good balance to the backline. But I do see a weakness in his game and when he's marking a big 13 I worry he'll get exposed again.

Maybe so but I don't think we see enough tacklers going around the legs rather most go high and try annihilate their opponent which looks good when it works but it rarely does. Every game you see players go high and either get the big fend in the face or just shrugged off. Atleast most of the time Smith takes players down even if they are able to offload or reach for the tryline first things first and thats stopping the player.

 

[Sam Owen]

I think it's mostly Owen who does the big hits.

Oh haha lol...ooookay then.:unsure::lol:

 

[Dizzy]

This game was a complete shambles in my opinion... Honestly didn't even look like a test match...

Muliaina kicked the ball away on nearly every time he got the ball which was bad for our squad considering we have the most feared attacking back line in the world..
Basicly, England out "All Blacked" the All Blacks. They were taking quick taps no matter where the penalty was and it was paying off because they were looking dangerous with ball in hand... The England squad deserves all the praise they get for giving us a really good run for our money...
The Hape try should have been awarded and the Hartley try shouldn't have been on three accounts, "double movement", "ahead of kicker" and "a player was taken out off the ball" I found the ref and his TJ's quite pathetic for not picking up either of these infringements.. Moody was coming in from the side of the rucks all game and the English were just diving into them without penaltys or even a card consideration.. Kaino was unfairly binned considering all the side entry from the English.
Gear should have been given more ball, see the turn of pace he had in his first touch... If he had been given the ball with more space he would have scored another or maybe two more....

Overall a disappointing game for me... Muliaina was terrible I don't know why he was trying to emulate Stephen Donald with his atrocious kicks...

 

[Nate Dizzle]

It's a Waikato thing, Cory Jane for starting fullback!

 

[Shaggy]

This game was a complete shambles in my opinion... Honestly didn't even look like a test match...

Muliaina kicked the ball away on nearly every time he got the ball which was bad for our squad considering we have the most feared attacking back line in the world..
Basicly, England out "All Blacked" the All Blacks. They were taking quick taps no matter where the penalty was and it was paying off because they were looking dangerous with ball in hand... The England squad deserves all the praise they get for giving us a really good run for our money...
The Hape try should have been awarded and the Hartley try shouldn't have been on three accounts, "double movement", "ahead of kicker" and "a player was taken out off the ball" I found the ref and his TJ's quite pathetic for not picking up either of these infringements.. Moody was coming in from the side of the rucks all game and the English were just diving into them without penaltys or even a card consideration.. Kaino was unfairly binned considering all the side entry from the English.
Gear should have been given more ball, see the turn of pace he had in his first touch... If he had been given the ball with more space he would have scored another or maybe two more....

Overall a disappointing game for me... Muliaina was terrible I don't know why he was trying to emulate Stephen Donald with his atrocious kicks...

I think the fact that Jane didn't get more ball, and the number of attempted kicks behind the defensive line is a testament to how good the English defensive line ... it wasn't that the All Blacks didn't try to take the game wide.

Some of the kicks behind the line were poorly executed, and the comparison with the Donald kick is probably justified ... If Mils's kick had resulted in a win for the English, i'm sure there would have been more said.

 

[Nate Dizzle]

I think the fact that Jane didn't get more ball, and the number of attempted kicks behind the defensive line is a testament to how good the English defensive line ... it wasn't that the All Blacks didn't try to take the game wide.

Some of the kicks behind the line were poorly executed, and the comparison with the Donald kick is probably justified ... If Mils's kick had resulted in a win for the English, i'm sure there would have been more said.

Gear?

 

[Shaggy]

Gear?

Haha ... yep Jane didn't get much ball at all did he, because he was sitting in the stands ... yes, thanks, I mean't Gear, don't know why I type Jane

 

[admartian]

-SBW had an ok. TOo many people overhyping him and his performance.

-Hartley, NEVER a try in a million years. Put it this way, it can be considered a try when Donald starts playing like Dan Carter. Those arguing little points about it, can be reminded that it WAS double movement, and an English player was offisde (even the English commentators thought so!!!!!!!)

- Smith is the best all around centre in the world right now. BOD is second, and I'd say AAC is up there too.

- Shocked about Keven, never saw it myself. Though, should defo be given way less than Bakkies.

- Not surprised Hartley wasn't cited. Definitely a thug in the making though. Was always looking for fisticuffs. Not sure if he grew up with Bakkies.

 

[nickdnz]

I think Smith may be possibly the most under rated All Black in this forum. Or maybe I'm just a typical Canes fan... Naaah.

Not really, there are many members who rate him very highly, but like many things, it takes someone who knows rugby, to watch the little and subtle things Smith does so well. Ma'a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams and Brian O'Driscoll are easy to appreciate. They have big plays, and can be fantastic to watch for anyone. Conrad Smith does have occasional moments of attacking brilliance, but what people don't see if how he makes every tackle on defence, times every pass to perfection, will always take the hit rather than throw an average pass. He's the player in the team that makes everybody else look good, and he does that better than any other player in the world.

People saying his tackling big guys is poor, you're speaking out of your arse. His tackling technique is close on perfect, on whoever it is. When he's tackling a big person, he hits them low around the legs and ankles, and he is usually on his feet contesting for possession. It's not that he can't make big hits, because he can and has -



But more often than not, he takes his player down. He's the best communicator and defensive organisor in the All Blacks by far. He's the fittest All Black, winning the beep test, and he shows he has a very high work rate.



No, he's not always the flashiest All Black, however he does have moments attacking of brilliance. Since 2007, he has scored the fourth largest number of international tries, just short of Shane Williams, Ma'a Nonu and Tommy Bowe and Mils Muliaina (more than BOD). Some of his tries are also very good, such as this one in 2009 -



He's not always the easiest player to appreciate, unless you know what you're looking for, he is easily the best Center in New Zealand, and probably the first choice center in the world.

 

[Black Heart]

I think Smith may be possibly the most under rated All Black in this forum. Or maybe I'm just a typical Canes fan... Naaah.

As a Canes fan myself, I think the public's spit view on him is very well justified. He's definatly a safe pick, there's no doubting that. And his combination with Nonu is very good. But he's never been a clear cut outstanding player - and some may even deem he's mediocre (that's not exactly my opinion but it has been said) New Zealand has always produced powerful running centres and because Smith doesn't quite fit that description I guess people have a different view on his ability.

Just a thought.

And this from your preferred centre of Bunce "I'm not sure who is best for who in that relationship but I would say that Ma'a plays better when Conrad is there".

I'm not doubting their playing abilty as a unit. My point was simply that SBW will pose a big threat, and that was with reference to the England test aswell. SB will definatly be in the 22 come world cup time regarless of whether he starts or not. The NZRU didn't do what they did to have him on the back burner.

Nonu (and consequently Smith) also looses direction when Carter is not running the show (as we saw in Sydney and then again in Hong Kong) so that's another side factor to think about.

- Smith is the best all around centre in the world right now. BOD is second, and I'd say AAC is up there too.

I think Ashley-Cooper is a dark horse. He's been in the frame for a while but he's never really had a quality run at centre because of Mortlock. But he's definatly found his legs now. He's the type of player who could win a world cup.

 

[Sam Owen]

New Zealand has always had powerful running centres and because Smith doesn't quite fit that description I guess people have a different view on his ability.

Hmmm...interesting.

I wonder what Conrad would be like at fullback, he runs like one. Im sure he can kick.

 

[Shaggy]

Not really, there are many members who rate him very highly, but like many things, it takes someone who knows rugby, to watch the little and subtle things Smith does so well. Ma'a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams and Brian O'Driscoll are easy to appreciate. They have big plays, and can be fantastic to watch for anyone. Conrad Smith does have occasional moments of attacking brilliance, but what people don't see if how he makes every tackle on defence, times every pass to perfection, will always take the hit rather than throw an average pass. He's the player in the team that makes everybody else look good, and he does that better than any other player in the world.

People saying his tackling big guys is poor, you're speaking out of your arse. His tackling technique is close on perfect, on whoever it is. When he's tackling a big person, he hits them low around the legs and ankles, and he is usually on his feet contesting for possession. It's not that he can't make big hits, because he can and has -



But more often than not, he takes his player down. He's the best communicator and defensive organisor in the All Blacks by far. He's the fittest All Black, winning the beep test, and he shows he has a very high work rate.



No, he's not always the flashiest All Black, however he does have moments attacking of brilliance. Since 2007, he has scored the fourth largest number of international tries, just short of Shane Williams, Ma'a Nonu and Tommy Bowe and Mils Muliaina (more than BOD). Some of his tries are also very good, such as this one in 2009 -



He's not always the easiest player to appreciate, unless you know what you're looking for, he is easily the best Center in New Zealand, and probably the first choice center in the world.

Great post Nick, spot on with everything you've said ... people often blinded by how many would be tacklers a player can bump of, and forget about backline organisation on defense etc, and as you said, he's scored a few tries too

 

[Nate Dizzle]

I'm not doubting their playing abilty as a unit. My point was simply that SBW will pose a big threat, and that was with reference to the England test aswell. SB will definatly be in the 22 come world cup time regarless of whether he starts or not. The NZRU didn't do what they did to have him on the back burner.

Nonu (and consequently Smith) also looses direction when Carter is not running the show (as we saw in Sydney and then again in Hong Kong) so that's another side factor to think about.

Williams will pose a threat but won't become a great All Black simply because he won't stick around after the world cup. He'll take years to perfect the centre trade and years he does not have in rugby. I'd be hugely suprised if he sticks with the ABs after the world cup. I guess all that matters is that Smith is highly rated by the coaches and will remain first choice centre for a while yet Williams or no Williams.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

- Not surprised Hartley wasn't cited. Definitely a thug in the making though. Was always looking for fisticuffs. Not sure if he grew up with Bakkies.

Nah, exact opposite.
Hartley used to be a lot worse than he is, he still loses his temper a bit now but it's gotten a lot better than before (when I would've happily called him a thug - because that's what he was) - now he just does some idiotic things every now and again