England v New Zealand

[Black Heart]

Williams will pose a threat but won't become a great All Black simply because he won't stick around after the world cup. He'll take years to perfect the centre trade and years he does not have in rugby. I'd be hugely suprised if he sticks with the ABs after the world cup. I guess all that matters is that Smith is highly rated by the coaches and will remain first choice centre for a while yet Williams or no Williams.

I agree with you about him leaving after the World Cup. I don't believe what he said about always having a great ambition to play for the All Blacks (although that mindset has probably changed somewhat in recent weeks) I believe he came into the frame to win himself some more glory (and presumably the world cup) in another sport for a while before leaving again for the dollar.

In saying that I don't necessarily agree it'll take years to perfect his game. With the born talent he already has he could be moulded nicely into the 12 or 13 jersey in a reasonable space of time. Don't forget that he has played international league as well as the NRL plus he's been in the spotlight since he was 18 so although he's a "rockie" at test rugby he's not exactly a green player to a big stage by any means.

 

[Duckdee]

Nah, exact opposite.
Hartley used to be a lot worse than he is, he still loses his temper a bit now but it's gotten a lot better than before (when I would've happily called him a thug - because that's what he was) - now he just does some idiotic things every now and again

Still a bit too often for my liking, but I'll see how he goes in the remaining tests before I write him off.

 

[gingergenius]

My assessment of the game (late but my internet at home's ****** and I want to get this typed up!)

Starting with the All Blacks, not their strongest performance... but at the same time, I think they were thouroughly outplayed in the tight pressured a lot in the backs, so I think it was England making them play badly as much as themselves.

I think the scrums said more about the outstanding scrummaging of the English front row than anything about the All Blacks, who've held their own against most other world teams.

Everyone will be talking about SBW. We saw that he can cut it at this level, and that his outstanding offloading game can create tries for his teammates. We also didn't see him much at all. Smith, as I've been saying all along, is currently the best 13 about.

Glad Mealamu's been cited, hope he sits out till next season.

Also, where has Hosea Gear been all this time?

Onto England:

Front row: outstanding, couldn't fault them besides a few dodgy Thompson throws. Hartley came on and made a real impact, but I hope he gets cited and banned for a very long time, because for the umpteenth time he's behaved like a ****.

Second row: very encouraging. Lawes had a big game and Palmer didn't totally impress but was good for his starting place. I like Attwood off the bench too.

Back row: Croft, outstanding. Moody - you can't fault his effort and general ability to be a 6, but we're going to need to find a fetching 7 soonish. Easter, mixed game. Some absolute brainfarts, some outstanding plays. Best 8 we've got, unfortunately.

halfbacks - very nice. Youngs looks to be a future star, and while Flood isn't in the Carter league, he looks like he can control a test match from 10, which is a good sign for a guy who started out as a flair player. Defence from him spot on too, coped with Nonu etc. absolutely fine.

centres - Hape isn't good enough. Waldouck please. Tindall can stick around and do a job for a bit.

back 3 - ashton and foden were both outstanding. I'd keep Cueto about, but despite his brainfart Armitage looks good for the 11 jersey fairly soon.

So, despite our defeat I'm hugely encouraged. We created a number of chances, we played some good expansive rugby and made the ABs sweat. If we become more clinical and improve our defence, then victories over the Aussies and Springboks are definitely possible.

Controversial tries - I didn't think Gear's was a try, but it was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Ashton was about a mile offside for our try. And Toeava took Hape out with a shoulder charge, which to me says penalty try... but then I'd say our fault for wasting a massive overlap.

All in all, fair result but one England certainly could have won. Which is why I'm feeling positive.

 

[brusselsbarbarian]

Having been at Twickenham on saturday and from watching the other matches online, it looks to me as though the North/ South divide has started to close.
Ireland were a conversion short of a draw, an under-strength Welsh team weren't demolished and England certainly showed quality.

Can we take this to point out that the World Cup may have some unexpected results and possibly be the most entertaining yet?

 

[durbutter]

Na, Ireland would've been hammered by either Oz or the AB's. We just caught an injury ravaged boks team at a very low ebb.

 

[Black Heart]

I think the scrums said more about the outstanding scrummaging of the English front row than anything about the All Blacks, who've held their own against most other world teams.

I don't know if I quite agree with this. The officiating of the scrums was extremely poor. The All Blacks had no problem in retaining their own ball but were penalised constantly on defence. Also the front row was going down on both sides so I don't why he chose to single out Woodcock.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

Here's my view on some of the more contentious points from this test


Gear's Try
Some are arguing that this should have been ruled no try... wrong. The TMO must clearly see that the foot touched first. There was no doubt about the grounding, but the try will be given if there is doubt about the foot touching. The fact that no camera showed it means it was the correct call. For a call of no try, the TMO MUST see that the foot touched first, otherwise he's guessing. i.e. you make the call on what you actually see, not on what you don't see.

Hartly's try
This should have been ruled no try. He did not place the ball immediately, instead, he lifted his body up and tried to advance closer to the goal-line. The fact that his feet shot out from under him as he lunged forward proves this beyond any doubt. However, it should never have got that far. Ashton was 2m ahead of Foden's kick (and therefore offside), and SBW was blatantly taken out. Three critical errors by three officials.

Toeava Tackle
A contentious one, which on the Referees forum is divided mostly along "party" lines but with a couple of notable exceptions. Personally, I saw nothing wrong with it. That was just a routine tackle. You will see tackles just like that on Rugby Union fields on any given Saturday throughout New Zealand, Australia or South Africa. He approached the tackle with arms out in front, and attempted to grasp. Remember the Law says

LAW 10.4 (g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.

He doesn't have to succeed in grasping the player, he only has to try to grasp the player

I know exactly what would have happened to me had I started awarding penalty tries and yellow cards for tackles like this... I would be back refereeing JAB seven year-olds on half-pitches at 10am on Saturdays before you could say Match Assessor!!

Mealamu's moment of idiocy
Should be gone for the duration. It was a dumb thing to do. What did he think he was going achieve? Well I'll tell what I think he has achieved...
1. He has put pressure on his team-mates (they probably wont be allowed to replace him)
2. An early trip back to New Zealand.

The difference between Bakkies' and Keven's heat-butts? Not a lot really, however, Keven probably wont get 9 weeks. Bakkies is a serial thug with a proven record as a dirty player (he's the "Danny Grewcock of South Africa"), and that was his ninth career trip to the judiciary. However, this will be Mealamu's first after 82 matches (althought he probably should have fronted in 2005 and we all know why don't we?)

I reckon he'll get 4 to 6 weeks, and his tour will be over.

You're not from New Zealand by any chance, are you?

 

[smartcooky]

You're not from New Zealand by any chance, are you?

Makes no difference where I'm from. I call it how I see it, regardless of the countries involved.

But if you must know, I was born at 84 Windmill Hill, Enfield, Middlesex, England.

 

[admartian]

You're not from New Zealand by any chance, are you?

Forget the fact whether he is or not - are those points not true? If not, then say WHY? Instead of just assuming they're automatically incorrect based on his support for the team...

1. How can you make a ruling on what you don't see? Whether in rugby, or in life.
Imagine a Lawyer saying, "well, it looked like he robbed the bank due to the cash he;s carrying, but we "didn't actually SEE it"."

2. Ok, if you don't think this was the biggest crock of tries, then you are more biased than you're accusing cooky to be. Seriously, do you have eyes?

3. Toeava tackle - see picture above.

 

[Teh Mite]

Out of interest Cooky, how did you get "4-0" when there's only been 3 games? Or do you count New Zealand getting beat by Australia as a victory "for the hemisphere"?

 

[Larksea]

Not really, there are many members who rate him very highly, but like many things, it takes someone who knows rugby, to watch the little and subtle things Smith does so well. Ma'a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams and Brian O'Driscoll are easy to appreciate. They have big plays, and can be fantastic to watch for anyone. Conrad Smith does have occasional moments of attacking brilliance, but what people don't see if how he makes every tackle on defence, times every pass to perfection, will always take the hit rather than throw an average pass. He's the player in the team that makes everybody else look good, and he does that better than any other player in the world.

People saying his tackling big guys is poor, you're speaking out of your arse. His tackling technique is close on perfect, on whoever it is. When he's tackling a big person, he hits them low around the legs and ankles, and he is usually on his feet contesting for possession. It's not that he can't make big hits, because he can and has -


But more often than not, he takes his player down. He's the best communicator and defensive organisor in the All Blacks by far. He's the fittest All Black, winning the beep test, and he shows he has a very high work rate.


No, he's not always the flashiest All Black, however he does have moments attacking of brilliance. Since 2007, he has scored the fourth largest number of international tries, just short of Shane Williams, Ma'a Nonu and Tommy Bowe and Mils Muliaina (more than BOD). Some of his tries are also very good, such as this one in 2009 -

He's not always the easiest player to appreciate, unless you know what you're looking for, he is easily the best Center in New Zealand, and probably the first choice center in the world.

oh c'mon that tackle on Wulf Conrad basically has a free hit because wulf struggled to take the pass and was trying to gather it from over his sholder leaving him exposed with his weight back rather than forward towards the tackler.

Smith is a good defender, I only worry when he's marking Mortlock or Fourie or someone similar. Actually in 2008 kahui was a suprise selection for a test against Australia where Mortlock was expected to start and henry said it was the best selection for that particular game. That for me confirmed exactly what I was thinking at the time.

 

[DonBilly]

Out of interest Cooky, how did you get "4-0" when there's only been 3 games? Or do you count New Zealand getting beat by Australia as a victory "for the hemisphere"?

Didn't Argentina Jaguar played a tier 2 NH nation last weekend?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Samoa played Japan as well (is Japan considered a NH team?)

 

[Teh Mite]

Surely in that case, Canada beating Russia counts as a "Team NH win".

Oh, wait, that spoils the point also...

 

[gingergenius]

The thing about the Toeava tackle isn't a big deal to me, 1) because the result was fair in the end and 2) because I personally think shoulder charges don't cause serious injury in league, and they should be legal in Union.

However, the only way Toeava could have stopped the try is by barging Hape, which is what he did. I'd say under the rules of Union, that's illegal, and therefore penalty try.

But as it is we lost by more than 7 points, our other try was controversial so... not really anything to get worked up about.

 

[smartcooky]

Out of interest Cooky, how did you get "4-0" when there's only been 3 games? Or do you count New Zealand getting beat by Australia as a victory "for the hemisphere"?

Japan v Russia

Although Japan is physically in the NH, it is part of the Pacific Region (they play in the Pacific Nations Cup with Tonga, Samoa and Fiji) and is considered by the IRB to be a SH Union.

NOTE1: All RWC's have alternated; SH then NH. Japan got 2019 RWC instead of 2015.

NOTE 2: NH v NH and SH v SH don't count for this

Upcoming NH v SH matches this weekend

Scotland v New Zealand (AI)
Wales v South Africa (AI)
England v Australia (AI)
France v Fiji (AI)
Italy v Argentina (AI)
Ireland v Samoa (AI)
Uruguay v Romania (RWC qualifier)

Those are the only ones I know of. If anyone knows of any others being played in this Test window, please let me know

 

[admartian]

The thing about the Toeava tackle isn't a big deal to me, 1) because the result was fair in the end and 2) because I personally think shoulder charges don't cause serious injury in league, and they should be legal in Union.

However, the only way Toeava could have stopped the try is by barging Hape, which is what he did. I'd say under the rules of Union, that's illegal, and therefore penalty try.

But as it is we lost by more than 7 points, our other try was controversial so... not really anything to get worked up about.

Fair enough, but I don't think it was a shoulder barge as such (I mean you technically always have to use your shoulders don't you?) and that he attempted (however minimal) to grasp Hape.

Sorry, I can see how that may have been seen as being worked up - so hard to convey tone...

 

[Teh Mite]

Fair enough, but I don't think it was a shoulder barge as such (I mean you technically always have to use your shoulders don't you?) and that he attempted (however minimal) to grasp Hape.

Sorry, I can see how that may have been seen as being worked up - so hard to convey tone...

Fair comment, although there is a noted difference between leading with a shoulder and leading with an aim to wrap the arms.


Regardless, if Hape wasn't such a useless gimp he's have not attempted that poncy twisting dive and it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[Charles]

Japan considered SH? Bullshit...What does it have to do that they play in the Pacific 6 Nations? Pacific does not equal SH. They are still in the NH, and quite up north at that...

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Japan considered SH? Bullshit...What does it have to do that they play in the Pacific 6 Nations? Pacific does not equal SH. They are still in the NH, and quite up north at that...

It's kind of a redundant point anyhow, as Russia would be classed as another NH side anyhow which doesn't statistically change anything.