England Saxons v Ireland Wolfhounds Kingsholm, Gloucester; 25/1/14 KO 1700

[Peat]

I think Lancaster wants Burns to come good. But he didn't have the confidence to back Burns back when Burns really was on fire, let alone now. Burns can and will recover from this, but I don't see Lancaster trusting Burns' consistency enough to oust Farrell. Especially when Ford is showing real promise.

You're right that Lancaster doesn't trust Burns' consistency, with reason, but he just doesn't trust new players in general, with reason. I don't think this game changes too much one way or the other except that if injuries start coming during the 6N, Burns won't be the guy getting promoted, and maybe he won't tour this summer. Lancaster will wait for Burns to move and take fresh stock at the very worst.

Bar I was in didn't have Sky so I missed if. Can someone fill me in on a Few things,

Was Watson any good?
How was Daly?
What did Burn do at the end that was so bad?
Why was Sam Hill taken off for Slade?
Tactically, we're the Saxons as boring as it sounds?

Alright
Pretty good
Last play, need 7 points to win, camped on their line by the corner flag, Burns goes for the pick and dive but fumbles while doing so
Facial injury
Don't think so, if anything we were too adventurous

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Jeeze, you've got to feel for the guy. He'll be replaying that in his head for months.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What's annoying is that actually it was the correct thing to do (IMO at least).
None of the Irish guards have a ****ing clue there is space there.
He just monumentally ****s it up.

 

[psychic duck]

What's annoying is that actually it was the correct thing to do (IMO at least).
None of the Irish guards have a ****ing clue there is space there.
He just monumentally ****s it up.

Yes, he actually showed good vision to see there is space.

 

[Tmartin995]

Missed the game, wondering how good a game Hill had before he went off. Reckon he could play centre for England down the line.

 

[Patchey]

Just see that clip somewhere else and agreed, had he not ballsed that up it would have been the right thing to do. No guards, clock almost up and one try to win.

Still, how did he even drop that?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Missed the game, wondering how good a game Hill had before he went off. Reckon he could play centre for England down the line.

Hill never really had a chance to look good because of the awful service from burns. It was one of the worst FH passing displays I've seen in years.

Hospital pass after hospital pass

 

[Peat]

Hill looked ok when on. All he was given were crash balls to take up and he did a good job of that despite being routinely double-tackled. Decent start for a young lad and I think he could make a case for himself in the English reckoning.

I certainly agree with Rats that him going off was a huge blow. Henry Slade and Matt Hopper were never busting open that Irish midfield. Have to say, its all well and good to criticise Burns for throwing all those speculative long passes, but I'm not sure his other options were too much better after Hill went off. In retrospect, we honestly might have been better sticking Sam Dickinson there. I'm serious. It's notable that the Irish long passing game wasn't much of anything either, horrible conditions for it, just they gave it... and maybe we couldn't. Maybe Burns was too eager to impress. I dunno.

I am more bothered about how little attention was paid to the breakdown and driving the ball on up front. Those looked like systematic errors that might infest the main team as well. Burns' lack of confidence, sad though as it is, is at least only his problem.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Burns has been passing like that throughout the season... ball goes 5 metres in the air and lands between the 13 and winger.



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>England reconvene at Pennyhill Park today to start preparing for France next Saturday. We'll have a squad update for you at around 8pm.</p>&mdash; England Rugby (@EnglandRugby) <a href="https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/statuses/427430239393042432">January 26, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Peat]

Even at his best I've felt his long passing could be sketchy, but last night was particularly bad, even by what I've seen of him this season.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

On the intercepted try it was well positioned and crap passing by Madigan and the IC (not sure of name)

On your theory that it doesn't count well madigans try shouldn't have counted because the tackling wasn't good

There was absolutely nothing wrong with either of those passes. Jones' was a bit high but a professional rugby player should catch it everytime, Gilroy ****ed up, not Madigan or Jones. Had Gilroy not dropped the easy pass the overlap would have been exploited. Honestly though none of the three tries would have been conceded if the teams were better prepared.

All in all that was an encouraging game in parts, the defence was solid and our tactics were a lot better thought out playing into the wind than the Saxons. It was never going to be a game to show anything in attack but the systems looked very sound. Nobody really played themselves into contention for a starting spot but a few players, Henderson, Madigan, McFadden, Zebo, O'Donnell and Henshaw definitely showed they're up for it if needed. The only negatives were stupid penalties being given away in attacking positions, but the ref was very inconsistent at the breakdown, and Gilroy probably played himself out of contention with a very weak performance. I feel bad for Burns, he seems like one of the more likeable characters in the England set up but it was easy to see he put far too much pressure on himself in that game and was trying to force absolutely everything he did.

 

[Peat]

Really can't agree. Both horrible, horrible passes. Gilroy should have caught it but it doesn't excuse the passer one bit.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I thought Gilroy was pretty poor throughout the game, but in no way was that drop completely his fault.

 

[ruggabee]

Anyone feel Gilroy has lost a bit of x factor? His being the ability to beat defenders. Not just for the wolfhounds but also for Ulster I've felt he doesn't break much. He runs a bit, spins in the tackle but unlike before, doesn't get away.

 

[munstermuffin]

@Cmac I'd have to disagree about McFadden as I thought he was poor and (although it probably will happen) I'd be disappointed if he gets in to 23 as realistically he is a good bit off. On list you've mentioned I'd add 2. Copeland who I thought was our best player and Ruddock. I've never been huge fan of him but this season he's stepped up and played excellent last night. Was incredibly impressed by all backrow.

@UlsterRugby2012 I understand you'll stick up for Gilroy but in fairness a pro rugby player should've held that pass or did much better job. I think he has to shoulder 85-90% of blame for that try which kinda summed up his night

 

[big ginger 8]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with either of those passes. Jones' was a bit high but a professional rugby player should catch it everytime, Gilroy ****ed up, not Madigan or Jones. Had Gilroy not dropped the easy pass the overlap would have been exploited. Honestly though none of the three tries would have been conceded if the teams were better

Well if you want to set a really low standard for our passing then sure they were ok. Madigan's was an ill advised pass given the conditions and behind Jones forcing him to check. This in turn had the knock on effect of not knowing where Gilroy was or what speed he was coming at leading him to fire it at him despite Gilroy being two yards away and coming at pace. Gilroy did however clearly take his eyes off the ball and look at the defense which he should never do but if he'd received a proper sympathetic pass he probably would've taken it. Basically everyone involved in that sequence has to take some of the blame.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well what Madigan was doing this time last year to gain lots of plaudits seems to get him victimised this year! Overlap on he fires a bullet, a bit too much zip but Jones dealt with it move on, Jones then gives Gilroy a pass to his face, problematic yes but it wasn't going fast and should have been dealt with leaving a two on one with Henshaw (I think?) on the wing. The passes weren't perfect, passes rarely are when trying to get the ball to the wing at pace, but both were sufficient to execute the move and get it to the wing. Jones and Madigan aren't blameless but far too much is being made of those passes, as MM said Gilroy has to take most of the blame for that try, he butchered a good position and gave them a try.

As for McFadden, just back from injury he was very solid defensiely and as usual made good gains with the ball in hand. I'd have him ahead of D Kearney for the 23 spot against Scotland with Zebo and Fitzgerald starting on the wings. Not much separates him and DK but I think he is the smarter and more determined of the two.

 

[Peat]

Anyone feel Gilroy has lost a bit of x factor? His being the ability to beat defenders. Not just for the wolfhounds but also for Ulster I've felt he doesn't break much. He runs a bit, spins in the tackle but unlike before, doesn't get away.

Not just you. Looks nowhere near as electric or confident. He's doing a job but he's not going to be forcing any tough decisions anytime soon - and he didn't even do a job Saturday.

Also, if Zebo goes straight back in, then its on reputation only and I don't think he should have that sort of reputation.

 

[osullie6]

Not just you. Looks nowhere near as electric or confident. He's doing a job but he's not going to be forcing any tough decisions anytime soon - and he didn't even do a job Saturday.

The best performances that I can remember from Gilroy were all in 2012: the HC quarter final against Munster, the Wolfhounds match against Fiji and the Ireland match against Argentina. I can't remember him looking as threatening since then and feel like he hasn't really kicked on. Not being first choice at Ulster probably hasn't helped, but even allowing for that, Tommy Bowe has been injured a lot in that time, so Gilroy's had plenty of first team rugby. Hopefully he finds his form again soon.

 

[munstermuffin]

But Cmac he was very sloppy with kicks and just hasn't done enough for me. I understand he's only back since Nov but still I think he will be put in there undeservingly.

@Peat I'd agree and disagree in a way regards Zebo. In my opinion his performance against Edinburgh was the best of Irish wingers over last 2 rounds of HEC. And while I agree he shouldn't be put in on reputation here's my view on Schmidts options:
D. Kearney - Solid player not really in top bracket but knows Schmidts game and seems to get nod on that.
Luke Fitz - Along with Earls the 2 were head and shoulders above rest on form and deserving.
Trimble - playing well but just has never seemed to be suited to Ireland. Don't know what it is but it just seems he can't transfer Ulster form to next level.
Zebo - Was off form before injury but since the return and original snub from Ireland as well as not getting straight back in to Munster team has benefitted him and he seems to have head right again.
Gilroy - Has been solid but gone off boil lately and last night may have really set his chances back.
McFadden - Same as D. Kearney but is more versatile but again has very very little rugby played.
Henshaw - A good option but again very little time on wing never mind in a high intensity game so I'd have presumed if he was realistic option he'd have seen time there last night