England Post-WC discussion

[TRF_Olyy]

That is pretty crazy levels of cash.

All I can think is that they're haggling.
"We'll offer you 50k"
"We want 500k"
"150k?"
"Go on then."


As I mentioned before, I can't see Bristol feeling 100% confident in Borthwick after this. You don't want an employee who has been offered a bigger job, for more cash, elsewhere and 100% wants it, but is only with you because you've blocked his move.
No matter how much Borthwick would put into Bristol, there'd always be a part of him wondering about the England job that slipped away.
Better for all parties if he moved on, Bristol just want as much cash as they can get to spend on a new guy.
If they can get a decent wedge, then I hear Graham Rowntree is looking for work...

 

[SelimNiai]

Why are we the villians in this?

We have Borthwick contracted as our employee.
We are, as we say in the statement, simply enforcing the agreed terms in said contract.
We have NOT permitted the RFU to discuss a coaching role with them let alone announce is as a done deal.
Despite reports, no resignation has been accepted, so until that happens or the contract is terminated, SB remains a Bristol employee. Not the free agent the RFU seem to think
We are within our rights to seek compensation from the RFU if we were to allow the move, the figure is simply how much his deal would be worth for the time remaining.

and this from the RFU's own rules

7.1 Approaches to Players
No Club or Constituent Body may directly or indirectly, approach any player
who is under contract with a Club, Constituent Body or Union to induce
or attempt to induce such player to leave that Club, Constituent Body or
Union unless such approach is made with the other Club's written consent
or in the final six months of the term of that player's contract. Any Club or
Constituent Body wishing to make such an approach may contact the RFU
for details of when a particular player's contract is due to expire

It can, and probably will, be argued this extends to coaches as well.

This isnt an attempt to undermine anything, this is us looking our for our interests and our investments.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If constituent bodies can ask RFU for permission to approach someone outside 6 months left on contract who do the RFU approach?

Won't change anything Bristol won't get promoted again anyway

 

[Peat]

Why are we the villians in this?

Mm. It's funny how all the Premiership supporters grumble and moan about the idea of their clubs having to give extra to the England cause, but when it's some Championship club getting raided for their coach, it's all different...

*note - that post was written with a very healthy dose of trollface, but there's some truth to it as well*

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mm. It's funny how all the Premiership supporters grumble and moan about the idea of their clubs having to give extra to the England cause, but when it's some Championship club getting raided for their coach, it's all different...

*note - that post was written with a very healthy dose of trollface, but there's some truth to it as well*

I agree on principal, but Bristol are at Bath levels of "arsehole" so IDGAF.


Also Sarries aren't standing in the way of Gustard, and Saints have said they won't block King.

 

[Peat]

I agree on principal, but Bristol are at Bath levels of "arsehole" so IDGAF.


Also Sarries aren't standing in the way of Gustard, and Saints have said they won't block King.

YDGAF about anything Olyy. You'd watch the world burn.

And that's their choice - others don't have to make the same one.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

YDGAF about anything Olyy. You'd watch the world burn.

Yes.

 

[HowieLO6]

I still wonder how we got Jones so cheap from Stormers, weren't ballpark figures up at 700-800k?

Strength of the rand probably helped on that front. While I'm sure EJ was being paid in a more stable currency, a wedge of rand would go a long way. The Stormers aren't exactly rolling in cash.

From Brizzles perspective, I can see why they're digging their heels in. They've now got to deal with the fallout of losing a coach and having to re-recruit, all mid-season. I'd be trying to get some reasonable compensation from the RFU's money tree.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Under UK contract law there will be circumstances which enable Borthwick to walk away from thr contract (without these the contract would not be legally binding under UK legislation).

If the contract doesn't state an capped amount of damages for Borthwick resigning then Bristol will only be entitled to...

The fee to search for a new coach
The difference between the new coaches salary and Borthwicks (which could actually be a nothing)

And last of all any financial damages they would receive by not having Borthwick on board (this will probably be excluded in the contract).

That's my MSc in contract law paying off

 

[Which Tyler]

Why are we the villians in this?

1. We have Borthwick contracted as our employee.
2. We are, as we say in the statement, simply enforcing the agreed terms in said contract.
3. We have NOT permitted the RFU to discuss a coaching role with them let alone announce is as a done deal.
4. Despite reports, no resignation has been accepted, so until that happens or the contract is terminated, SB remains a Bristol employee. Not the free agent the RFU seem to think
5.We are within our rights to seek compensation from the RFU if we were to allow the move, the figure is simply how much his deal would be worth for the time remaining.
6. and this from the RFU's own rules
7. This isnt an attempt to undermine anything, this is us looking our for our interests and our investments.

1. You did, but then he resigned
2. Maybe
3. They don't need your permission
4. You can't realistically refuse to accept his resignation
5. Yes, you are; that's absolutely standard practice; apart from the allowing the move thing - which you can't refuse. Figure is negotiable, and depends on various clauses in the contracts; which go both ways.
6. Borthwick isn't a player, so any rules pertaining to players don't apply.
7. Well, it is - your club is trying (failing) to block the move; unlike Saracens, Saints and Stormers this time around, and every club that's ever lost a coach to England in the past. This last point also directly addresses your original question.

 

[SelimNiai]

Of course they need our permission, although its very current that a governing body ignores its own rules. For RFU, see FIFA. Is Sepp Blatter on the RFU board too? And we can refuse to accept a resignation. The players rules can easily be linked to coaches without too much hassle.

I don't expect us to win this battle but I fully support the clubs stance on this. As far as I am concered we are in the right.

 

[ncurd]

I understand it may extend to coaches but is it actually legally enforceable? My understanding as an EU citizen I have the right to seek employment wherever I wish regardless of what my contract says I can and can't do.

What I'm not allowed to do in that regard is give IP to a competitor which can lead to buffering times between jobs but I doubt Borthwick has any of that from a Championship side that can be applied to a International team.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lol at comparing FIFA to RFU.

Lololololoololololoolollolollolollollololol

Is Bristol the bigger dog money wise in this situation?

 

[Tony Manx]

enforceable? My understanding as an EU citizen I have the right to seek employment wherever I wish regardless of what my contract says I can and can't do.
.

So why have a contract in the first place? Because it's gives certainty of employment to the employee and of the availability of the employee to the employer!!

Again I say, depending on the terms if the contract, if an employee is entitled to compensation for being sacked so is the employer for the employee arbitrarily walking away from his obligations!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lol at comparing FIFA to RFU.

Lololololoololololoolollolollolollollololol

Is Bristol the bigger dog money wise in this situation?

Hard to say. The RFU have far more real-world cash than Bristol, but Bristol have their sugar daddy if they can tap into him.
I imagine the RFU could rustle up some "investors" if it really came to £££ v £££

 

[Which Tyler]

Of course they need our permission, although its very current that a governing body ignores its own rules. For RFU, see FIFA. Is Sepp Blatter on the RFU board too? And we can refuse to accept a resignation. The players rules can easily be linked to coaches without too much hassle.

I don't expect us to win this battle but I fully support the clubs stance on this. As far as I am concered we are in the right.

Why "of course" - I still deny that it's true, let alone that it's self-evident.

What of their own rules are the RFU breaking? so far people have put up rules relating to players; who aren't coaches, and aren't even enforceable for players.

RFU vs FIFA Hah! - if you actually believe that, you must be seriously deluded.

You can link them as much as you like - but it still won't work; coaches aren't players.

So why have a contract in the first place? Because it's gives certainty of employment to the employee and of the availability of the employee to the employer!!

Again I say, depending on the terms if the contract, if an employee is entitled to compensation for being sacked so is the employer for the employee arbitrarily walking away from his obligations!

Contract =/= slavery. Both sides have the ability to unilaterally terminate a contract; the contract serves, in this case, to set-out levels of compensation and expectations relating to that departure (including things like unfair dismissal, notice periods, compensations etc).
No-one has claimed that Bristol aren't entitled to compensation; of course they are; and in the absence of specific clauses, it's likely to be a year's salary - if they really are holding out for millions, then they're likely to get far less than they actually deserve, and find it extremely difficult to hire any decent coaches in the future.

 

[Peat]

They've got Andy Robinson as DoR - they clearly find it very difficult already!

Speculating on contracts is always murky ground but one suspects that if the agreed on compensation clause for Borthwick leaving Bristol was low, this argument wouldn't be happening. At this point, Bristol are either very deluded, or know that the contract agreed upon gives them a very strong position to behave however they feel like this. And Lansdowne has never struck me as deluded, although he does think Andy Robinson is a good man to have DoR, so...

 

[Maverick1987]

Daily Mail reporting that Ian Ritchie has stopped negotiating with Bristol after they wanted more than £750,000 to release Borthwick . The RFU also reportedly offered him back after the 6N

Anyone for ringfencing the premiership with Bristol outside of it ? Haha

I would say we could invite Carnegie but they are the club that gave us Lancaster .....

 

[j'nuh]

IMO, it's a basic (moral, I'm not sure about legal) human right that a worker is not forced into working for someone; otherwise it is slavery. The right to walk away from employment should be kept by all workers. If a change in my circumstances means that I need to move halfway across the country, I shouldn't be forced to turn up at work, despite any employment contracts signed. My employer then has the right to fire me.

An argument can be made that he knew what he was getting into when he accepted a fixed term contract, but I disagree. When an industry (sports) is completely run on these types of contracts, what option does a worker in the professional sports industry have? It's only in sports that I have ever heard of a worker being expected to see out their contract.

So for me, Bristol has little to justify their position, at least morally. They have been offered way more than the contract is worth, not letting Borthwick go is scummy. Yeah, it screws them over, but the rights of the individual wins out here.

Daily Mail reporting that Ian Ritchie has stopped negotiating with Bristol after they wanted more than £750,000 to release Borthwick . The RFU also reportedly offered him back after the 6N

Anyone for ringfencing the premiership with Bristol outside of it ? Haha

I would say we could invite Carnegie but they are the club that gave us Lancaster .....

 

[ncurd]

Daily Mail reporting that Ian Ritchie has stopped negotiating with Bristol after they wanted more than £750,000 to release Borthwick . The RFU also reportedly offered him back after the 6N

Anyone for ringfencing the premiership with Bristol outside of it ? Haha

I would say we could invite Carnegie but they are the club that gave us Lancaster .....

Out of interest what happens if terms are not agreed and Borthwick just turns up at England?