England Post-WC discussion

[Maverick1987]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...as-last-piece-of-England-coaching-jigsaw.html

First (big) indication that it's going to be King - it's funny, if you had asked me last year, then I would have no trepidation about it... after the start of this season however....

To be fair Northampton have had a downturn this year that's imo being caused by losing some huge ball carriers in the pack not by the attack patters although I think the have looked sharper with JJ at 10 than Myler

At the moment my backs would be

9. Youngs
10. Ford (mainly because they have forged a nice little partnership, we can't say that about anyone else except Wigglesworth and Farrell ....)
11. Nowell
12. Tuilagi (who else ? Need some power in the backs)
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown
21. Care
22. Cipriani (place kicking puts me off a bit, place Farrell here if you please)
23. Daly

 

[Peat]

Daly would probably win a footrace, but I'd like to challenge the notion that Nowell is positively slow, he's not slow in the way that Goode is or Mike Brown used to be.

Also not sure what you are basing Daly's supposedly higher potential on?

Nowell's not slow, no... although maybe not international winger quick.

And I think Daly's a better athlete.

 

[Maverick1987]

Nowell's not slow, no... although maybe not international winger quick.

And I think Daly's a better athlete.

As far as I can see it's all about if you need Nowell to squeeze through the gaps at pace or you need Daly to open the afterburner and blaze past the outside of people both have great offloading skill and Nowell is substantially stronger than Daly or that how it looks anyway

 

[TommyVercetti]

13: Daly > Nowell
15: Daly > Nowell
11: Nowell > Daly

Daly would probably be my 23 shirt though purely because I think I'd have Nowell starting over May at this point.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd only have Daly ahead of Nowell at 13.

I think Nowell is the better athlete by a distance - the only thing Daly really has over him in that regard is top speed.
Nowell is stronger, more powerful and more agile for me.

 

[TommyVercetti]

To be fair Northampton have had a downturn this year that's imo being caused by losing some huge ball carriers in the pack not by the attack patters although I think the have looked sharper with JJ at 10 than Myler

At the moment my backs would be

9. Youngs
10. Ford (mainly because they have forged a nice little partnership, we can't say that about anyone else except Wigglesworth and Farrell ....)
11. Nowell
12. Tuilagi (who else ? Need some power in the backs)
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown
21. Care
22. Cipriani (place kicking puts me off a bit, place Farrell here if you please)
23. Daly

Have Tuilagi and JJ ever played together? Manu at 12 is an interesting one - if they haven't been given a go I would like to see it purely because they are the two most proven international class centres but obviously whether the balance is right and whether Manu has the subtleties to his game to play 12 effectively remain to be seen.

I wouldn't mind that side, only change I would make is Farrell for Cips as you say on the bench, could see him starting aswell though. And as much as I like Mike Brown and he's been excellent for a while now, think Watson eventually needs to be integrated in to the 15 role, maybe with Wade on the other wing opposite Nowell.

 

[Peat]

Have Tuilagi and JJ ever played together? Manu at 12 is an interesting one - if they haven't been given a go I would like to see it purely because they are the two most proven international class centres but obviously whether the balance is right and whether Manu has the subtleties to his game to play 12 effectively remain to be seen.

Two games in South Africa in 2012. Didn't go great, but then a lot of things didn't, and it's not hard proof one way or the other imo.

 

[brokenoses]

For me, Nowell needs his hands on the ball more than he gets on the wings. Other candidates aside, I think he is better suited to either 13 or 15. He can ignite a counter attack from nothing. He is agile and strong, he finds/makes gaps and beats the gain line more often than not (with the ability to offload if its on). He may not be the quickest but he's certainly not slow. His defence is solid as is his ability under the high ball. Exeter bias aside, I do think in Nowell we have a well rounded back of high quality and I can't see how he can be left out of the 23 or even 15 come the 6 Nations.

 

[tsof]

Two games in South Africa in 2012. Didn't go great, but then a lot of things didn't, and it's not hard proof one way or the other imo.

Pretty sure it was only the final test they played together in the centres wasn't it. JJ was a sub for the first two. Came on in the second on the wing, with Foden moving to FB.

 

[FLOBALOB]

For me, Nowell needs his hands on the ball more than he gets on the wings. Other candidates aside, I think he is better suited to either 13 or 15. He can ignite a counter attack from nothing. He is agile and strong, he finds/makes gaps and beats the gain line more often than not (with the ability to offload if its on). He may not be the quickest but he's certainly not slow. His defence is solid as is his ability under the high ball. Exeter bias aside, I do think in Nowell we have a well rounded back of high quality and I can't see how he can be left out of the 23 or even 15 come the 6 Nations.

Agree with all of what you say, he needs to be involved more ,ball in hands. When playing on the wing he's always hungry and looking to get involved by coming of his wing. Assuming he'll be playing at 13 for the next few months , it wouldn't surprise me if he put himself in contention for Englands 13 jersey come 6N.
As for whether Nowell or Daly is the fastest, there wouldn't be much in it to be of any significance.

 

[Which Tyler]

Agree with all of what you say, he needs to be involved more ,ball in hands. When playing on the wing he's always hungry and looking to get involved by coming of his wing. Assuming he'll be playing at 13 for the next few months , it wouldn't surprise me if he put himself in contention for Englands 13 jersey come 6N.
As for whether Nowell or Daly is the fastest, there wouldn't be much in it to be of any significance.

Agree with that one.
I wouldn't take Nowell as a wing TBH, nor as a OC or FB.
Get him plenty of game time at OC and I can see him making OC a 4 way challenge with JJ, Daly and Manu; and basically a 2-way fight for the 23 shirt with Daly.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd definitely have Nowell in the 23, if not starting wing then in the 23 shirt.

I also don't know how anyone can look past Farrell as starting 10. He's head shoulders torso and legs above the competitors this season.

 

[Peat]

Pretty sure it was only the final test they played together in the centres wasn't it. JJ was a sub for the first two. Came on in the second on the wing, with Foden moving to FB.

Tuilagi-Joseph started the 36-27 and the 14-14 games on that tour.

edit:

I'd definitely have Nowell in the 23, if not starting wing then in the 23 shirt.

I also don't know how anyone can look past Farrell as starting 10. He's head shoulders torso and legs above the competitors this season.

Because he has shown very sharp limits to his ability as an international fly-half and no amount of club form on the back of one of the strongest platforms going changes that.

 

[HowieLO6]

Agree with that one.
I wouldn't take Nowell as a wing TBH, nor as a OC or FB.
Get him plenty of game time at OC and I can see him making OC a 4 way challenge with JJ, Daly and Manu; and basically a 2-way fight for the 23 shirt with Daly.

Considering our slim pickings on the wings, Id prefer he stuck there. Offers something different in terms of getting stuck in and being a bit wriggly when he's got the ball in hand.

In terms of Farrell at ten, won't that also be dictated a little by the gameplan that Jones wants to put in place? Best on form, but Ford's playing well enough for my money. I guess the advantage with Daly comes with having someone to split the kicking with when Ford's starting.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ford's still not proving he can hack the pressure - the opposite, in fact.
Farrell's shown enough attack for me to be happy with him at 10, especially with the other backs we have.
I wouldn't want him playing with Barritt and Burrell outside him, for example, but would feel 100% happier with him there than Ford.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Everyone knows Nowell is our new openside.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Everyone knows Nowell is our new openside.

Really?
He might actually be first to the breakdown and we all know that's not the England way.

 

[Peat]

Ford's still not proving he can hack the pressure - the opposite, in fact.
Farrell's shown enough attack for me to be happy with him at 10, especially with the other backs we have.
I wouldn't want him playing with Barritt and Burrell outside him, for example, but would feel 100% happier with him there than Ford.

Ahem.

What you mean is, when put behind a crumbling pack, George Ford doesn't produce miracles.

Can someone point me to Farrell's last winning performance behind a crumbling pack?

George Ford's dodgy decision making is less of a barrier to international performance than Owen Farrell's not being very good.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Love Nowell as a player, but agree that he's not quick enough for the wing and, ignoring Daly, I doubt he'll ever get past Manu or JJ for 13. That leaves 15 and I think that shirt should be given to Watson to keep for a very long time. I think Nowell will win a lot of caps, but mainly off the bench.

Both he and Slade are in danger of being jacks of all trades though. Fine at club level, or even for making a match day 23, but not for nailing down an international XV starting place.

 

[Which Tyler]

Considering our slim pickings on the wings, Id prefer he stuck there. Offers something different in terms of getting stuck in and being a bit wriggly when he's got the ball in hand.

I'm often at odds with a majority opinion on this sort of thing.
I always prefer to look at what position best suits a player's attributes and maximise their potential there. This always has to dis-count who else plays how well and where at club and at country level.

So, for example, I think that Slade would probably be an IC in an ideal world; Nowell's an OC, Garvey's a lock, Itoje a BSF, Burgess would have ended up at 8 etc etc.


As for Farrell - no team in any sport at any level has ever been picked just on form - it'd be suicide. Ford is doing plenty well enough (and is a far superior rugby player, with a better attitude), and has the advantage of reasonably like-for-like alternatives if he picks up an injury, meaning that game-plans don't have to do an about turn due to a sprained ankle. Cips, Slade and Burns (if he ever finds his confidence again) can all slot nicely into a Ford-based gameplan and be natural at it; only really Myler can slot into a Farrell-based one. Beyond that, of course, Farrell can viably play approximately 1 plan; whilst the other set are much more flexible in what they can do as they actually have the requisite skill levels.

Don't get me wrong, he's good at what he does; just not as good as his hype (iceman or petulant oik?; glorious kicker, or a good 80%er?), what he does isn't what I particularly want to watch on a rugby pitch; he's also taken 4 years of experience to reach international level at that; whilst not being versatile enough.