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England Post-WC discussion

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HenryChinaski said:
Not true; look at some players technique and strength on feet.
Dan Cole has good technique but a gust of wind could clear him out.
Haskell is strong but poor technique and body shape
Pocock has treetrucks for legs and great technique.
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Jackling is such an easy thing to do and easy to do well. It's the reading of the game and knowing when to jackle that's the real skill.

Anyone who jackles at the wrong time would get wiped out by a good clear out. If you watch the best open sides they don't jackle all the time, they pick and choose where to do it and that is the skill, reading the game.
 
living sacrifice said:
Jackling is such an easy thing to do and easy to do well. It's the reading of the game and knowing when to jackle that's the real skill.

Anyone who jackles at the wrong time would get wiped out by a good clear out. If you watch the best open sides they don't jackle all the time, they pick and choose where to do it and that is the skill, reading the game.
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I agree with most of your post but jackling isn't easy. There's a lot of technique involves and it depends on body type/shape as well. Also there's the speed to get into the position. Instead of saying it's easy I would say it is easier to coach as a skill.

I agree that the decision making is harder and is what separates those who are good from great.
 
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It's the reading of the game that's the key. Obviously there's differences in technique and ability at the breakdown. It's takes a body slam from Haskell to get Armitage off the ball, whereas someone like Robshaw or Haskell tended to get cleared out fairly easily. Robshaw is very good at recognising when it's 95% on, but I don't believe he's as good as recognising where that breakdown could be before it happens.

A good 7 will regularly run in front of the attacking line, and sometimes even behind the defensive line, as he goes to where the next breakdown will be, as opposed to where the ball is currently going. You can follow a good 9 doing the same thing. Both positions require that ability to read the game before it happens. This is what allows a top 7 to get more turnovers than the likes of Robshaw, the fact that they're on the 95% breakdowns far more often (and indeed create those chances by arriving earlier).
 
Raggs said:
This is what allows a top 7 to get more turnovers than the likes of Robshaw, the fact that they're on the 95% breakdowns far more often (and indeed create those chances by arriving earlier).
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Robshaw is extremely good at reading the play and being at the breakdown;I think it's a mixture between not being quite agile or dynamic enough over the ball to make the most of a split second advance, plus not quite having the outright speed of Hooper or Tipuric to be sure of getting there the fastest; either way I don't think his reading of the game has ever been a problem.
 
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living sacrifice said:
Jackling is such an easy thing to do and easy to do well. It's the reading of the game and knowing when to jackle that's the real skill.

Anyone who jackles at the wrong time would get wiped out by a good clear out. If you watch the best open sides they don't jackle all the time, they pick and choose where to do it and that is the skill, reading the game.
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Passing a ball seems the easiest feat in rugby, and yet we still have so-called "distributors", and players still routinely fail to pass to hands even at international level.

Jackaling is significantly more difficult than passing, so it only makes sense that it takes more to specialise in it. Three skills in particular that need specialism:
  1. Strength over the ball. Robshaw gets into nowhere near as strong a position as Kvesic does. You constantly see Robshaw flopping over. Even when Kvesic doesn't make the steal, you rarely see him flop over. He's on his feet, disrupting the whole time. A low centre of gravity helps here, along with exceptional core strength, and not everyone has this.
  2. Speed over the ball. A fraction of a second is enough to make the difference in whether you steal the ball or not. e.g. a mark of a good openside is whether they can make the tackle and get back on their feet in time to contest. It is ridiculous how fast you need to be to do it successfully.
  3. And yes, reading the game. Which isn't a skill everyone can learn.
 
j'nuh said:
Passing a ball seems the easiest feat in rugby, and yet we still have so-called "distributors", and players still routinely fail to pass to hands even at international level.

Jackaling is significantly more difficult than passing, so it only makes sense that it takes more to specialise in it. Three skills in particular that need specialism:
  1. Strength over the ball. Robshaw gets into nowhere near as strong a position as Kvesic does. You constantly see Robshaw flopping over. Even when Kvesic doesn't make the steal, you rarely see him flop over. He's on his feet, disrupting the whole time. A low centre of gravity helps here, along with exceptional core strength, and not everyone has this.
  2. Speed over the ball. A fraction of a second is enough to make the difference in whether you steal the ball or not. e.g. a mark of a good openside is whether they can make the tackle and get back on their feet in time to contest. It is ridiculous how fast you need to be to do it successfully.
  3. And yes, reading the game. Which isn't a skill everyone can learn.
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When I played schools rugby, I always remember wondering why a tiny wee 7 was always playing, he wasnt strong at all, quite gangly and about 5'10, but for some reason he was great at stealing the ball. The crab position (low, arms pincering on the ball, and holding it into the player to use that as an extra prop for balance) has to be taught perfectly or be picked up fast at an early age, as it has to be spot on in terms of balance to withstand the initial clearout attempt. Size and strength are also important, but lowering your legs for the base, and not leaning too far forward are key, and in the high tempo that is a breakdown, it's absolutely frantic, the speed with which you assume this position is key. Once arms are locked on the ball, you shouldnt be moved if you've got the right body position, hence why speed is vital.

As well as this, tugging the ball to win it rather than simply holding it into the player to try and win a penalty, which is what a lot of english players do, makes you a harder target for the clearout, as they will struggle to grab and roll you with a shifting centre of gravity, though this is also a little bit of talent required and core strength to stay strong while doing this.

Jackaling over the ball requires a really really well bedded in technique, and is highly technical. It is not easy, in fact it only ever looks easy when you're watching Pocock once he's over the ball and making any clearout look like kids trying to move Dwayne Johnson
 
He's right that Sale aren't worth bothering with though - everyone with serious international ambitions there leaves.
 
We might as well pack in our academy, to be fair.
The only academy products we have over 25 are Lund and Briggs, and they both left and then returned.

It'd **** over a lot of other clubs, mind.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
We might as well pack in our academy, to be fair.
The only academy products we have over 25 are Lund and Briggs, and they both left and then returned.

It'd **** over a lot of other clubs, mind.
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Has Leicester pinched a Sale player yet?

Seems we aim for waves, first Falcons (Flood, Parling, Woods), then Worcester (Benjamin, Kitchener) then Irish (Thompstone, Bowden, Gibson).

Need to scout you some more, we have your former Academy manger in charge of ours now so that's a start,
 
Not that I can recall - only Tommy Bell on yours books, atm, is a Sale academy guy but he'd been poached by Wasps already.
 
Well that's why they call it Sale, they sell the players on ;)
 
The move wouldn't be off, as in - he's 100% gone from Union.

The NRL have just told SS that they need to make more space in their cap to allow him to register.
 
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