England Post-WC discussion

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

in that.... scrum? Maul? Ruck?
OHH.....

 

[Which Tyler]

So Launchwood or Attbury?

Well, you'd put Attwood on the THP's side - so Launchwood, obviously

 

[Crapspray]

I wonder how many more of these stories we'll see over the next two months. There's been a fair few players who've been messed around and then dropped anyway, despite doing everything the coaches asked them to.

I'll place my bet on Kvesic. He certainly has the best axe to grind given how long he held tackle bags - only for Clark to overtake him during the summer. Maybe Cipriani will finally snap.

 

[Peat]

^

Launchwood can now be considered an 'item' and I hope they have a long and 'productive' relationship together.
I'd certianly rather avoid any of this 'Launchling' or 'Attling' nonsense.

Parling's been a flat out better international than Attwood so far - and a more consistent one than Launchbury too. He certainly doesn't deserve this horse manure.


I didn't post this because I'm in favour of Attwood. I'm not. I need more work from him and less stupid penalties. Maybe in the right partnership his weaknesses would be covered up and all would be joy but I'm not betting anything on it. Now, maybe if he hadn't been mucked around he'd have found his feet properly, and that's why I posted it - further signs of the mucking around of our forwards.


It will be interesting to see where Jones goes with the locks.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Parling's been a flat out better international than Attwood so far - and a more consistent one than Launchbury too. He certainly doesn't deserve this horse manure.


I didn't post this because I'm in favour of Attwood. I'm not. I need more work from him and less stupid penalties. Maybe in the right partnership his weaknesses would be covered up and all would be joy but I'm not betting anything on it. Now, maybe if he hadn't been mucked around he'd have found his feet properly, and that's why I posted it - further signs of the mucking around of our forwards.


It will be interesting to see where Jones goes with the locks.

Parling has been a great servant of England and at many times a much underrated player especially given his work rate, underestimated carrying, his more obvious leadership and lineout work, and I have rated him pretty highly in the last few years.
But moving forward I don't think he's what we need. I reckon itoje will offer the same and more, even as a flanker.
Attwood was a revelation for England until the six nations going into the warm ups; I'm hoping it will be shown that this was part and parcel of his problematic relationship with the coaches at the time.. His discipline was cack - for me, highly indicative of not buying into the system.

Not sure if I agree consistency has been an option for Launchbury. Rushed back into the England set-up after 9 months or so out after a serious injury, he was luke-warm - as were the rest of our squad who didn't have the excuse of such a long time out.

I was being a bit flippant about Parling who still has a role in the squad - but, frankly, not for much longer I should think.

 

[Peat]

So... a revelation until he actually started a string of games?

I actually watched back... think it was the 2nd test against NZ after hearing about Rowntree melting down very publicly about Attwood's work rate. I could see where Rowntree was coming from. I think we've overegged Attwood tbh.

Launchbury's consistency issue goes deeper than this year. Given his injuries, big blocks of playing time, and age, it's completely unsurprising, but that doesn't change what's happened.


As for Parling... well, hugely depends what Jones wants at this stage. If he is what Jones wants though, I think he's in until old age claims him, which could be the rest of the cycle, as accuracy and precision seem to escape most of our locks.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

So... a revelation until he actually started a string of games?

I actually watched back... think it was the 2nd test against NZ after hearing about Rowntree melting down very publicly about Attwood's work rate. I could see where Rowntree was coming from. I think we've overegged Attwood tbh.

Launchbury's consistency issue goes deeper than this year. Given his injuries, big blocks of playing time, and age, it's completely unsurprising, but that doesn't change what's happened.


As for Parling... well, hugely depends what Jones wants at this stage. If he is what Jones wants though, I think he's in until old age claims him, which could be the rest of the cycle, as accuracy and precision seem to escape most of our locks.

Meh even from the bench Attwood made a very noticeable difference in the previous six nations when he came on. Pretty much every game. I particularly remember him pad-locking a late Irish driving Maul and thinking that we'd finally found a missing piece in the pack.

Accordingly I don't think we've overegged Attwood - we're saying he offers something sufficiently different to our other options at Lock - Lawes, kruis, Parling. Nowhere has he been described as a world Class player.

 

[Peat]

Meh even from the bench Attwood made a very noticeable difference in the previous six nations when he came on. Pretty much every game. I particularly remember him pad-locking a late Irish driving Maul and thinking that we'd finally found a missing piece in the pack.

Accordingly I don't think we've overegged Attwood - we're saying he offers something sufficiently different to our other options at Lock - Lawes, kruis, Parling. Nowhere has he been described as a world Class player.

Most people seem to want him as a nailed down starter. To me, that's overegging the pudding quite markedly.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Most people seem to want him as a nailed down starter. To me, that's overegging the pudding quite markedly.

Again, seeing as we've been quite short in the tight-head lock department I'm not sure it's really overegging; I think we need either an Attwood or an Alberts / Garvey style flanker.
For what it's worth kvesic has probably been overegged slightly as well - because we don't have many other options. It's about the sum of parts. I think both Kvesic and Attwood could have a multiplier effect, as much because of what others lack as because of what they themselves bring..

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Again, seeing as we've been quite short in the tight-head lock department I'm not sure it's really overegging; I think we need either an Attwood or an Alberts / Garvey style flanker.
For what it's worth kvesic has probably been overegged slightly as well - because we don't have many other options. It's about the sum of parts. I think both Kvesic and Attwood could have a multiplier effect, as much because of what others lack as because of what they themselves bring..

I totally agree, it's all about balance.

Attwood wouldn't make any difference adding him to a springbok pack. Add him to an England pack and it helps our weaknesses.

Kvesic seems like the one true hope of all English fans. Personally I think Fraser has played better when I have seen him fit but it depends if he stays fit.

 

[Mattybuck]

Attwood's work rate for Bath is first class, hence new 3 year contract.

So issues for England may well be from issues over the set up.

He makes big tackles, carries strongly, has good hands, wins lineout ball and adds weight to the pack. That's a more all around game than the other locks!

 

[RedruthRFC]

A slight tangent, but have England (and possibly other NH sides) got it wrong when it comes to developing locks? Looking at the Rugby Championship sides at the World Cup, it seems like the blueprint second row is 6'7" - 6'8" and IRO 18.5 stone, with few if any players falling significantly short of these marks. Do we simply lack the big bodies or are players with a the potential to hit these marks being cast on the scrap heap for whatever reason?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

we have a couple players that size.

 

[Maverick1987]

Most people seem to want him as a nailed down starter. To me, that's overegging the pudding quite markedly.

I think most want him given a chance along side Launchbury to make the second row theirs which imo is perfectly viable . Who do you guys think is a better scrummaging lock Attwood or Kruis ?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Slater.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Lawes for 12?

Sorry, forgot that SL had left.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think most want him given a chance along side Launchbury to make the second row theirs which imo is perfectly viable . Who do you guys think is a better scrummaging lock Attwood or Kruis ?

the thing is, I don't think of Attwood as a scrummaging lock. Sure he helps there but it almost implies he is a set piece player a la Adam Jones. Attwood is still pretty good around the field with the set piece strength being a good piece on top of other aspects of his game, not at the expense of them.

 

[Aristodemus]

I would like to see Itoje given the starting shirt alongside Launchbury myself. He already (imo) does most things better than Attwood and iff ever there is a time for developing (undoubted) future talent then it is the 6n that follows a WC campaign. Attwood would be a handy bench replacement, I really don't want Parling in the 23. Of course this also depends on Sarries sticking with him at lock.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I would like to see Itoje given the starting shirt alongside Launchbury myself. He already (imo) does most things better than Attwood and iff ever there is a time for developing (undoubted) future talent then it is the 6n that follows a WC campaign. Attwood would be a handy bench replacement, I really don't want Parling in the 23. Of course this also depends on Sarries sticking with him at lock.

I just don't think itoje is tall enough for an international lock. We need itoje to come in at 6 but only if he's got a good carrying game as well as everything else.

I kind of think our locks should be lauchberry, Attwood, kruis and then bring in a younger player until lawes learns to do some more basic lock things well.

At 6 try ewers, robshaw, itoje and see how it goes.

 

[stus768]

Wade injured for a couple of months. Worst time for him with a chance to impress EJ. Counter attack had been brilliant.
Defence still a bit ropey tho