England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

So you would be happy to see that back row running out representing England?

Ewers - Zimbabwean (Fair enough he's been here about 6+ years)
O'Connor - Kiwi (been here a few weeks)
Hughes - Fijian been here 2.5 years.

We would be a laughing stock.

Is what it is - I'll live with it if we win.

Ewers is the son of English parents and moved here when he was 13. Very definitely a different case to the others.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd much rather we didn't play guys who've only been here a few years but the most important thing is to select our best side. I want a winning back row.
If O'Connor can walk into the England set-up then the biggest problem is what that says about the other players available.

Personally, I'd say the bigger problem is what it says about the management of the game in England that we can' produce/use players with that skill-set.

I don't blame (for example) Robshaw for not being a jackler - I blame the various prem coaches, and most academy coaches, for not producing any jackals as options for selection (and the last couple of England coaches for not selecting from the few who were available)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Personally, I'd say the bigger problem is what it says about the management of the game in England that we can' produce/use players with that skill-set.

I don't blame (for example) Robshaw for not being a jackler - I blame the various prem coaches, and most academy coaches, for not producing any jackals as options for selection (and the last couple of England coaches for not selecting from the few who were available)

You're not wrong - if it says something about the other players as I think it does, that in turn says something about the management of the game in England. For sure.
Thing is for me digging heels in and pretending that 'Fully English' players are better than the 'less English' ones, won't get us anywhere.

It's also a function of how the premeirship has developed and how its refereed. You only had to witness George Smith being penalised 5 times by Tim Wigglesworth earlier in the season to understand the impact a certain kind of officiating can have upon players and coaches. The wisdom is that if the ref says 'leave it', you damm well leave it, regardless whether he's right or wrong. But does this principle still stand if its failing to prep us forthe international game?

 

[Which Tyler]

On your last point; it's a mater of versatilty for the player; and a willingness to go for the ball (correctly) in the first place; and just pulling back once they've found the ref's boundaries.
Geroge Smith will adapt, and perform the jackalling role in the Prem - just like Francois Louw has for the last 5 years, or Julian Salvi for the last few.
And yes, I can say that despite it being an almost direct contradiction of what I'd written before about systems and coaching (though it still endorses my point at academy level - which is where I guess those showing the jackalling skills are encouraged to stop practicing and go to the gym instead)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

On your last point; it's a mater of versatilty for the player; and a willingness to go for the ball (correctly) in the first place; and just pulling back once they've found the ref's boundaries.
Geroge Smith will adapt, and perform the jackalling role in the Prem - just like Francois Louw has for the last 5 years, or Julian Salvi for the last few.
And yes, I can say that despite it being an almost direct contradiction of what I'd written before about systems and coaching.

Well you're right but the point is I think that's a bad direction of travel. If that's a young English 7 getting penalised like that, the takeaway message is competition is not really encouraged, so go away and work on your carrying or your tackling, etc. George Smith, Francois Louw and Julian Salvi will all just adapt their game to the league within which they are playing because they have many years of experience. The worry is that for developing players it will draw their focus away form this important part of the game.

 

[Which Tyler]

Sorry, I think I might have ninja'd you with my late editting

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Sorry, I think I might have ninja'd you with my late editting

you..heartless *******!

 

[Which Tyler]

Muah ha ha hhaaaaaahhhh!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How many clubs in the Prem don't play an openside?
Saints it the only one I can think of, maybe Worcester?


It's not the game in England that doesn't value opensides, it's England.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

How many clubs in the Prem don't play an openside?
Saints it the only one I can think of, maybe Worcester?


It's not the game in England that doesn't value opensides, it's England.

How many of them are actually English and actually opensides in the traditional sense, though? All the 7s are coming in from outside; we see the benefits of a good 7 in hindsight when they come to our shores, not in development. Also, most of the premiership 7s have other aspects of their game. Louw isn't really a jackler but typical of south african backrowers he can do it when he feelsl ike it. salvi is a multi-dimensional player.

Beyond Smith Wasps have Thomas Young who is, predictably, Welsh. Sam Jones is the closest we've got but he's in my view a better 6 and a better 8 than 7. (Although if you average 6 7 and 8 it makes 7, right!?) The 7's who come up in England tend to be the poorer ones, in short.

 

[Peat]

How many clubs in the Prem don't play an openside?
Saints it the only one I can think of, maybe Worcester?


It's not the game in England that doesn't value opensides, it's England.

Quins routinely do, Tigers do when they're short of their one openside... Wasps routinely played Haskell there, Sarries do whenever Fraser is injured, I forget who Exeter had before Salvi, were they a 7?

It's not uncommon. We have a solitary two opensides produced in England fit to be talked about for international rugby under the age of 30. I think there's only two clubs with two or more opensides and one of them, Sale, looked at the prospects of replacing their current ageing mob and decided converting a SH blindside made more sense.

Value proper opensides we do not. Occasionally one slips through the gaps but even then, they've got a hard fight for international recognition.

 

[Which Tyler]

FTR Bath have "proper(ish)" opensides at 1st and 3rd choice 7, with a 6.5 (Alfie) as first choice backup.
Neither Louw nor Mercer are true jackals even then.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Sorry, I think I might have ninja'd you with my late editting

Yet it didn't stop you leaving in "Geroge" Smith

FTR Bath have "proper(ish)" opensides at 1st and 3rd choice 7, with a 6.5 (Alfie) as first choice backup.
Neither Louw nor Mercer are true jackals even then.

Also Garvey at 6 is pretty nifty at the breakdown.

 

[Peat]

FTR Bath have "proper(ish)" opensides at 1st and 3rd choice 7, with a 6.5 (Alfie) as first choice backup.
Neither Louw nor Mercer are true jackals even then.

I was only counting first and second choice (shoulda been clearer) - although Guy Mercer is so eminently forgettable!

I think Newcastle might have two first and second now I think about it. I think many have a second openside somewhere on the books... hell, Northampton technically have two on the books if you count Nutley and Harrison...

One idly wonders what would have happened if Dave Ward had sought a shot at openside.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I was only counting first and second choice (shoulda been clearer) - although Guy Mercer is so eminently forgettable!

I think Newcastle might have two first and second now I think about it. I think many have a second openside somewhere on the books... hell, Northampton technically have two on the books if you count Nutley and Harrison...

One idly wonders what would have happened if Dave Ward had sought a shot at openside.

Speaking of Newcastle I only realised today when I went on his wikipedia that Andy Saull isn't even at Newcastle any longer..! Gone to Yorkshire Carnegia.
What happened to that one?? At one stage considered our best hope for a proper openside...!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Bad injury anfter injury. He was ahead of everyone else at grade level now he's a championship player.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What is all this nonsense about these players not being jackers???

Most players who play flanker in England (in fact I will say all, why not) can jackle.

The fact is they will be under instructions from the coaches to get back on their feet and fan out, rather than potentially give a penalty away.

Jackling isn't difficult, it's daft to think that any flanker can't jackle, hell even Coke jackles.

It's all about what players are told to do.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

What is all this nonsense about these players not being jackers???

Most players who play flanker in England (in fact I will say all, why not) can jackle.

The fact is they will be under instructions from the coaches to get back on their feet and fan out, rather than potentially give a penalty away.

Jackling isn't difficult, it's daft to think that any flanker can't jackle, hell even Coke jackles.

It's all about what players are told to do.

Not true; look at some players technique and strength on feet.
Dan Cole has good technique but a gust of wind could clear him out.
Haskell is strong but poor technique and body shape
Pocock has treetrucks for legs and great technique.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Quins routinely do, Tigers do when they're short of their one openside... Wasps routinely played Haskell there, Sarries do whenever Fraser is injured, I forget who Exeter had before Salvi, were they a 7?

It's not uncommon. We have a solitary two opensides produced in England fit to be talked about for international rugby under the age of 30. I think there's only two clubs with two or more opensides and one of them, Sale, looked at the prospects of replacing their current ageing mob and decided converting a SH blindside made more sense.

Value proper opensides we do not. Occasionally one slips through the gaps but even then, they've got a hard fight for international recognition.

I stand corrected then!

"Sale, looked at the prospects of replacing their current ageing mob and decided converting a SH blindside made more sense. "

Ioane? He's only playing openside because Seymour has concussion issues and Braid prefers to play blindside these days as he doesn't have the legs to cover the ground from openside.
Ioane was signed as a reserve 8, but Beaumont has that **** nailed down, and Fihaki is playing really well in the background. It's more a case of get Ioane in where we can rather than he's being converted to an openside. I don't think he'll ever play at 7 without one of Seymour/Braid/Lund alongside him.
Also we have a multitude of 7s coming through the academy (most notably Hughes and Parfitt). Hell we had to convert two to hooker just to get them game time above academy level (Tommy Taylor and Cameron Neild).

 

[Peat]

I stand corrected then!

"Sale, looked at the prospects of replacing their current ageing mob and decided converting a SH blindside made more sense. "

Ioane? He's only playing openside because Seymour has concussion issues and Braid prefers to play blindside these days as he doesn't have the legs to cover the ground from openside.
Ioane was signed as a reserve 8, but Beaumont has that **** nailed down, and Fihaki is playing really well in the background. It's more a case of get Ioane in where we can rather than he's being converted to an openside. I don't think he'll ever play at 7 without one of Seymour/Braid/Lund alongside him.
Also we have a multitude of 7s coming through the academy (most notably Hughes and Parfitt). Hell we had to convert two to hooker just to get them game time above academy level (Tommy Taylor and Cameron Neild).

I also stand corrected.

Do Sale actually have any non-openside flankers?