England Post-WC discussion

[TheSaffycen]

Time to start accepting the inevitable. Also, you're slipping, that was totes an opportunity to big up a Sale player.

Beamount actually would be a great choice. Is he also a 6 ? Because he covers 4/8 then he can be the perfect 19 or 20.

 

[j'nuh]

I regard any lineout without two very good jumpers and three very good to good as iffy.

But if you get that selective about player's lineout skills, you risk it coming to the detriment of other facets of the game.

Let's say we have 20 catches to make (15 is the average). As a rough estimate, Attwood takes 8, Launchbury takes 5, second row replacement takes 4, Morgan takes 2, Ewers takes 1 (both mostly at the front of the lineout, where catches are safe). We also have the option of pushing a pod far and getting Kvesic to catch unopposed, a quick throw to the front lifter, throwing long and having a back collect etc.

My opinion would change if we had an enforcer in the XV though. They're generally not too useful in the lineout except for catching at the front, so you need someone sprightly in the backrow to help out with the catching. Since all of our locks are fairly mobile in the lineout, it's not too much of a worry.

 

[Peat]

But if you get that selective about player's lineout skills, you risk it coming to the detriment of other facets of the game.

Well... yeah.

I'm the guy who's already said we're not going to have it all. That if we're going to be truly selective in one facet and have outstanding strengths, its going to come at the detriment of other facets. Have you come around to my way of thinking now, padawan? :lol:

I'm not trying to prove it can be done with England's current playing pool. If you want to go and prove it, then go ahead and have another shot, but please accept that a proper first rate lineout unit comes with a first rate back row jumper. A Croft or a Wood - not a Morgan, not unless he improves himself, and that is more difficult than you think.

I'm not sure it that's necessary an objective though. I can't think of a single team that doesn't make some trade offs to be incredibly strong in one area at the expense of being adequate/weak in another - or, more often, simply don't have the players to implement an area properly. A fair few of those teams are doing better than us.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It might be over the top knee jerk reaction from me but I think we need a complete over haul in he coaching from U20's up including Saxons (which have been criminally poor lately for the talent we have)

We need to try and organise more games for the Saxons in summer maybe to Georgia or Romania for starters. FFS we have a huge player base we have one of the richest unions and yet we just fail to find an England system where we can keep players involved in the England set up after U20's.

For example
Henry/Baxter/Ryan - Head Coach type
Borthwick - Forwards
Gibson - Backs (Thinking about King I'm just not sure)
Leigh Jones - Defence (he can also help forwards)
Find a scrum coach maybe even Ledesma (Nick him from Aussie )
Alred - Kicking and fly half coach Helped out wilkinson a lot and Cips claims he helped him change his ways could be great to have for the likes of Ford and Cips.

Saxons and U20's I have no idea.


I wouldn't like Lancaster in a DOR role.

1) What potential head coach would want there former head coach to be above them?
2) I just don't think he should be in the senior England set up.
3) I would rather have a Head Coach who will challenge the RFU more and try and get them to sort there house a bit esp towards the younger system.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who's Leigh Jones?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who's Leigh Jones?

Japan defence coach.

 

[Geordie]

Why was Dave Ewers not in the squad? I just don't understand why you would leave someone like him out.

Huge guy, big carrier which we lack, very physical defence. Much is made of a lack of lineout...but he is an option just not used much. Im sure he would be fine.

He has also made 6 look natural to him.

A back row of:
6 Ewers
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

Now that would be interesting.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Why was Dave Ewers not in the squad? I just don't understand why you would leave someone like him out.

Huge guy, big carrier which we lack, very physical defence. Much is made of a lack of lineout...but he is an option just not used much. Im sure he would be fine.

He has also made 6 look natural to him.

A back row of:
6 Ewers
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

Now that would be interesting.

The reason we will never have a top notch massive 6 is that robshaw is too slow at 7.

If we had a proper 7 at 7 with pace you could afford to have a slower 6. At the moment we need woods speed as robshaw is slower than Mike Tindals turds!

 

[j'nuh]

Japan just got dicked by Scotland. The SA result was awesome, but it's a bit knee-jerky to be taking up half their coaches because of it!

If we appoint Baxter as head coach, he can head up the forwards coaching and Rowntree can provide assistance and continue on the set piece. Move Farrell purely into defence coaching, which he is actually pretty decent at, and have King take over as backs/attack coach. Lancaster moves into "team manager" role. Catt continues in his role and it would be tempting to hire an equivalent for the forwards.

No one fired, everyone specialised in their proper roles. I think a big England problem is that all of the coaches dabble across roles. I think it would be better to have a larger coaching team where each member is entirely specialised to the role they bring.

Well... yeah.

I'm the guy who's already said we're not going to have it all. That if we're going to be truly selective in one facet and have outstanding strengths, its going to come at the detriment of other facets. Have you come around to my way of thinking now, padawan? :lol:

I'm not trying to prove it can be done with England's current playing pool. If you want to go and prove it, then go ahead and have another shot, but please accept that a proper first rate lineout unit comes with a first rate back row jumper. A Croft or a Wood - not a Morgan, not unless he improves himself, and that is more difficult than you think.

I'm not sure it that's necessary an objective though. I can't think of a single team that doesn't make some trade offs to be incredibly strong in one area at the expense of being adequate/weak in another - or, more often, simply don't have the players to implement an area properly. A fair few of those teams are doing better than us.

But you're saying it would be iffy" if we don't have the perfect set of jumpers. George and Launchbury/Attwood/Morgan wouldn't be perfect, but it wouldn't be iffy either.

I feel I'm kind of arguing a redundant point though, because I don't think Attwood should be starting for England anyway. He wasn't great in the Six Nations, and was prone to giving away daft penalties. I'd be open to seeing him again I guess.

 

[Geordie]

The reason we will never have a top notch massive 6 is that robshaw is too slow at 7.

If we had a proper 7 at 7 with pace you could afford to have a slower 6. At the moment we need woods speed as robshaw is slower than Mike Tindals turds!

Can we not bring in Kvesic then?

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I have no faith in Lancaster, and ive been saying that for around 2 years now.

 

[Geordie]

So how about Post WC

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic
8 Billy / Ben

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Stephenson / Hill / Or A.n.Other??
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Japan just got dicked by Scotland. The SA result was awesome, but it's a bit knee-jerky to be taking up half their coaches because of it!

If we appoint Baxter as head coach, he can head up the forwards coaching and Rowntree can provide assistance and continue on the set piece. Move Farrell purely into defence coaching, which he is actually pretty decent at, and have King take over as backs/attack coach. Lancaster moves into "team manager" role. Catt continues in his role and it would be tempting to hire an equivalent for the forwards.

No one fired, everyone specialised in their proper roles. I think a big England problem is that all of the coaches dabble across roles. I think it would be better to have a larger coaching team where each member is entirely specialised to the role they bring.

Japan got dicked because they were tired Japan defensive style is very impressive aggressive and low tackles add in a 7 like Kvesic it should give him more opportunities to get over the ball.

Borthwick have turned Japan's Lineout into one of the most impressive of the competition taking apart both Scotland and SA there.

Keeping Lancaster, Farrell and Catt is stupid IMO if you're going to move them down etc and it will be IMO be a **** storm to manage. England need an outside coach (from another country somewhere) IMO.

DOR - Lanacaster
HC - Baxter
A.forwards - Rowntree
Backs coach - King
A.Backs coach - Catt
Defence Coach - Farrell

I hate the look of that.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

So how about Post WC

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic
8 Billy / Ben

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Stephenson / Hill / Or A.n.Other??
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Think there should probably be more turnover than that mate.

Not sure Marlers up to it
Hartley will be out the moment we can find someone who can throw
Lawes is not what we need. He can go missing and there's not enough elements to his game. Can't carry.
Youngs should go the moment we find a scrum half with half a brain
Wing si goign to get competetive. Not sure May will be seen as well rounded enough two years down the line, but could be wrong...

 

[brokenoses]

LH - Mako Vunipola, Alex Waller
HK - Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie
TH - Kieran Brookes, Kyle Sinckler?
LK4 - Joe Launchbury, Maro Itoje
LK5 - Courtney Lawes (has been world class at times last year, good in the lineout), Graham Kitchener
BF - Dave Ewers, Sam Burgess?
OF - Matt Kvesic
N8 - Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola
SH - Joe Simpson, Dan Robson
FH - Henry Slade, George Ford
WG - Jack Nowell, Jonny May
IC - Sam Hill, Manu Tuilagi?
OC - Jonathan Joseph, Elliot Daly
FB - Anthony Watson

A few gaps if anyone has ideas, and questions over leaders maybe, but all of these guys will be young enough to play in Japan in 2019. If its going to be a clean sweep next year, why not get the ball rolling and get them some international experience.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Wouldn't trust Hill @ International level yet IMO, he should be in Saxons next year

If England was to go clean sweep and not inculde most players in set up now who are over 28 as that squad goes would rather:
1) Mako, Auterac (Who should be Bath starting LH next season IMO),
2) George , Heywood
3) Brookes, Thomas, Sinckler(?)
4) Launchbury, Itojie
5) Kitchener, Lawes,
6) Ewers, Burgess, Clifford
7) Kvesic
8) Billy, Morgan
9) Simpson, Robson, Youngs
10) Slade, Cips, Ford
11) May, Nowell
12) Eastmond, Manu
13) Joseph, Daly
14) Watson,
15) Pennell,

Captain who the fuk knows. The Leicester man in mewants to put Slater over Lawes and have him Captain.

 

[brokenoses]

Yeah I know Sam personally so he wont appreciate me saying this but Saxons experience would do him the world of good. Huge potential though and a certainly a future in the England setup. Whats the score with Tuilagi, will he off to France with his fingers stuck up at England or do you think he'll stay and redeem himself in some peoples eyes at least? I would suggest Burgess holds the credentials for future captain but I think Ewers is too strong a player to be kept away from starting at 6. RE: Pennell, has he dropped off a bit recently with his lack of AP and international experience? I'm also not sure whether Watson's future lies on the wing or at fullback. Whatever the case, hopefully more talent emerges at 9, 7 and back 3. A bit more depth in these positions and I think we have a very bright future, provided we have management that utilises this properly of course...

 

[Geordie]

I don't think there'll be a huge raft of changes.

But I do think the back row MUST be changed. Ewers and Kvesic simply MUST be trialled.

Could Auterac at Bath challenge Marler with a good season? Hes a huge lad...and very powerful.
I think Lawes needs to be seriously questioned aswell. Im just not convinced.

I hope Slater comes out smashing it this season like he did the season before his injury.

- - - Updated - - -

And can the Tigers also please move harry Thacker to 7. Now he would be one livewire 7!

 

[RedruthRFC]

If we appoint Baxter as head coach, he can head up the forwards coaching and Rowntree can provide assistance and continue on the set piece. Move Farrell purely into defence coaching, which he is actually pretty decent at, and have King take over as backs/attack coach. Lancaster moves into "team manager" role. Catt continues in his role and it would be tempting to hire an equivalent for the forwards.

On the subject of Rowntree, I'm amazed that there aren't more knives out for him. Despite having all but one (two if anyone really wants to rake up that old discussion again) of his best players available to him to work with for an extended period, the pack appears to have regressed. It's not like any big risks have been taken like say sacrificing bulk or experience for dynamism (other than Atwood missing the cut), so surely Rowntree must shoulder much of the blame for preparation and selection.

As well as the well documented lack of a traditional seven, England have a problem with a lack of available lineout options in the back row - something which in particular with Youngs hooking appears essential to the team. What do people attribute this to? Are those who aren't recognised jumpers simply not athletic enough to do the job or is it an area that could be improved upon with work? I'm inclined to believe the latter - surely the average back rower is more athletic and skilful than the average second rower, albeit a bit shorter. This being the case, should the England management be working more closely with the clubs to see areas of concern like this addressed? The club vs country thing is always going to be tricky, but ultimately the RFU are holding the trump cards as long as the players in question are keen to be part of the England setup.

 

[Geordie]

On the subject of Rowntree, I'm amazed that there aren't more knives out for him. Despite having all but one (two if anyone really wants to rake up that old discussion again) of his best players available to him to work with for an extended period, the pack appears to have regressed. It's not like any big risks have been taken like say sacrificing bulk or experience for dynamism (other than Atwood missing the cut), so surely Rowntree must shoulder much of the blame for preparation and selection.

As well as the well documented lack of a traditional seven, England have a problem with a lack of available lineout options in the back row - something which in particular with Youngs hooking appears essential to the team. What do people attribute this to? Are those who aren't recognised jumpers simply not athletic enough to do the job or is it an area that could be improved upon with work? I'm inclined to believe the latter - surely the average back rower is more athletic and skilful than the average second rower, albeit a bit shorter. This being the case, should the England management be working more closely with the clubs to see areas of concern like this addressed? The club vs country thing is always going to be tricky, but ultimately the RFU are holding the trump cards as long as the players in question are keen to be part of the England setup.

I think the pack DOES lack power Redruth.

4 Lawes 5 Parling 6 Wood
Wheres your power, wheres your big game carrying, wheres your aggressive tackling and rucking. Lawes only aggressive tackling is against scrum halves.
Im harping on abit but what a difference Ewers would make in there at 6. Then someone like Slater who when fully fit and on form does so much more round the park than Lawes...in my opinion.

As to the back row...I think the problem is Youngs not being able to throw confidently to the back.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yeah I know Sam personally so he wont appreciate me saying this but Saxons experience would do him the world of good. Huge potential though and a certainly a future in the England setup. Whats the score with Tuilagi, will he off to France with his fingers stuck up at England or do you think he'll stay and redeem himself in some peoples eyes at least? I would suggest Burgess holds the credentials for future captain but I think Ewers is too strong a player to be kept away from starting at 6. RE: Pennell, has he dropped off a bit recently with his lack of AP and international experience? I'm also not sure whether Watson's future lies on the wing or at fullback. Whatever the case, hopefully more talent emerges at 9, 7 and back 3. A bit more depth in these positions and I think we have a very bright future, provided we have management that utilises this properly of course...

I watched Sam Hill in a Saxons game last year. So do you really know him? Or did he forget he played in those games?