England Post-WC discussion

[Crapspray]

Re: locks, are we not going to end up with Attwood/A.N. Enforcer because of a lack of alternatives? In Attwood, Slater, and Kitchener we have enough big(ish) locks to make sure the gameplan/structure withstands injuries. Whereas I think we only have Launchbury who can play a fast, wide game effectively. Lawes, maybe, but I think his ruck work and carrying are just too poor. So pick Attwood, Slater, or Kitchener at tighthead lock, with Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, and Kruis covering field lock.

The same with Front Row and Back Row - I'm not sure the personnel are there for an NZ-styled pack. Our front row is too slow and poor at handling - only Mako and LCD are really quality passers. Our back row too slow, and -bar Morgan- our Number 8s have poor basic skills. I thought last year we looked close to managing it, but the pack seems to have fallen back from that peak and now looks much worse for trying to adapt to it.

We then look to play similar to how we did against Australia last year and Scotland this (well, for the first twenty minutes) - forwards control possession, focussing on set-piece, and the backs are only truly unleashed off the back of maul or in the opponent's 22. Pick a slightly creative inside-centre (Hill, Devoto, and dare I say it 36) to compensate for Farrell or assist Slade.

Leaving us with my punt for the Six Nations next year:

1. Marler
2. Hartley (to be replaced by George A.S.A.P)
3. Cole
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury
6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Hill
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Brown

16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Brookes
19. Lawes/Itoje
20. Clifford (utility, plus plenty of tight carrying available with the replacement front row)
21. Simpson
22. Slade
23. Watson

EDIT: That side isn't necessarily first-choice, but attempting to bring Clifford, Itoje, Ewers, and Slade in so they have 30 - 40 caps by 2019.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You say are front row is to slow, But we have some very mobile forwards who are coming up who look Mobile and are showing promise in the scrum.

LH - Waller, Auterac
H - George, LC-D, Heywood
TH - Snickler, Balmain

In 4 years those should be in there prime.

Brookes and Thomas are both mobile enough and are looking good in the tight.

I'll prob get ripped to shreds for suggesting it but what about Robbie deans?

His early years with aus were pretty good, and as previous coaches have found out the wallabies players are not the easiest lot to handle.

Our creative 10's Cips and Ford offer more all round ability then Cooper IMO so can't see him not picking them.

It's just I can't see Baxter leaving yet before either getting Chiefs to the final and maybe even winning it.

Deans
King
Borthwick
Rowntree (maybe some one else but can't think of any ATM).

Thinking on this Borthwick might be a difficult one to get Def a consultant but he could back out of the Bristol deal still.

 

[Crapspray]

You say are front row is to slow, But we have some very mobile forwards who are coming up who look Mobile and are showing promise in the scrum.

LH - Waller, Auterac
H - George, LC-D, Heywood
TH - Snickler, Balmain

In 4 years those should be in there prime.

Brookes and Thomas are both mobile enough and are looking good in the tight.

My main concerns with picking them is:

We already have a good front-row. To properly blood those players we have to chuck three or four very good props who will be truly in their prime (29 - 32 years old, 70 - 90caps) come Japan 2019.

It's a big if that those players come good. Their basics (Sinckler, LCD, and Thomas in particular) are still far too poor for international front rowers. I'd honestly consider Hill, Genge, and Walker more likely to get in the squad before all bar-George and Auterac.

Finally, even if they did turn out to be an all-court front-row, we still don't have locks or flankers good enough to play the same game. The pack, as a whole, are not used to - or suited to - a fast game. They've not been brought up with it; nor do they play it at club level. While we shouldn't ignore fitness and work-rate, they shouldn't be confused with genuine footballing skill.

18 months ago I would have agreed, but the autumn, Six Nations, and this world cup have, I think, demonstrated that the skill simply isn't there. We'd be far better suited to tightening up and playing to our traditional strengths. It might not make use perrenial champions, but I still think we'd be a better side.

 

[msf]

Crapspray, if you had watched the U20s in any of the tournaments for the past 5 years you would know that we have loads of mobile, skillful forwards, we just haven´t picked them.

If we lose Vunipola, for example, we are able to put in Auterac now, or Hobbs-Awoyemi or Genge in a couple of years.

Same with Thomas - Brookes for now, Hill for later.

Re: LCD, Yeandle starts ahead of him most of the time, and plays a similar game. George is surprisingly decent around the field.

Re: backrow, instead of Morgan or Vunipola, we could play Clifford or Beaumont, or Hughes if he qualifies. Instead of Robshaw we could play Kvesic or Armitage. Instead of Wood we could play Itoje, or even Burgess.

 

[McTallshort]

England or Bristol? Not much of a choice really

 

[msf]

Oops, a bit late with my comment there.

Locks then, we will have Symons (could have been capped by NZ, played in Super Rugby) to replace Launchbury or Lawes, and Kruis or Itoje in reserve.

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And we have a good front row now, but not a world-class one. They all have their failings:

Hartley: not a ball-carrier and a liability in terms of discipline.

Youngs: not a great thrower at international level.

Marler: not a great ball-carrier

Cole: ditto

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England or Bristol? Not much of a choice really

More of a legal thing.

 

[McTallshort]

More of a legal thing.

Anything involving the legal profession can be overcome with a few pound notes in the right places.

 

[Crapspray]

Crapspray, if you had watched the U20s in any of the tournaments for the past 5 years you would know that we have loads of mobile, skillful forwards, we just haven´t picked them. If we lose Vunipola, for example, we are able to put in Auterac now, or Hobbs-Awoyemi or Genge in a couple of years. Same with Thomas - Brookes for now, Hill for later. Re: LCD, Yeandle starts ahead of him most of the time, and plays a similar game. George is surprisingly decent around the field. Re: backrow, instead of Morgan or Vunipola, we could play Clifford or Beaumont, or Hughes if he qualifies. Instead of Robshaw we could play Kvesic or Armitage. Instead of Wood we could play Itoje, or even Burgess.

I have watched them. But I don't think we should be in the business of pinning our hopes on 21-24 year-old front rowers unless they are dominating the incumbents.

We all seem agreed England need a style. Why do we then base it on players who might come good in four years time? Like it or not, the current squad are still young and likely to be with us for another six years. And, like it or not, our club game is still dominated by teams with strong packs. Semi-finalists this year were Leicester, Saints, Bath, and Sarries. All four reliant on forward dominance and only Bath can be considered an attacking side - and even then they have a big tight five and very good depth in the front row. Ultimately, they got smashed up-front by Sarries in the final and their backs were as much use as ***s on a fish.

Maybe in 2023 we'll have a mobile pack, but jumping the gun will leave us with a half-measure like we have now - a hodge-podge pack trying to play a game they're not suited to. And potentially do a Matthew Tait to our most promising forwards.

And we have a good front row now, but not a world-class one. They all have their failings: Hartley: not a ball-carrier and a liability in terms of discipline. Youngs: not a great thrower at international level. Marler: not a great ball-carrier Cole: ditto

They're not perfect, no. But I'd still say, across the training squad, we've got the best front-row in the NH apart from maybe France. Marler, Vunipola, Brookes, Corbs, and Cole all have years left in them and are not at the prime propping age.

I already said I'd get rid of Hartley A.S.A.P., but I think it'd be reckless to chuck him early and neglect an experienced player. The contortions our pack have gone through to accommodate his loss suggest he's more important than we might care to admit. Mea Culpa on forgetting Yeandle though, but in my defence most people do. He needs to grow a mullet, then we'll take notice.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

^ on the topic of Hartley, there's a more general point here about dealing with our 'exiles' generally.

Its all very well laying down these rules e.g around off the field discipline and guys having to play in the premiership - but I think we have to ask whether it's a luxury we can afford.

I think if you're going to rule out the likes of Hartley, Tuilagi, armitage it should be on the understanding that for each player ruled out we have an alternative who is equally strong/ fulfills the same criteria. I currently don't think this can be said of the world cup squad without those 3 (in particular) and while its an admirably principled position to have, I see it as a bit foolish and ignorant of the bigger picture.

Whilst Wales have created a bit of a grey area with their selection I do quite like that there is room within the foreign selection policy to say actually this player is crucial to the squad and we will have to make an exception. To not do so just seems hopelessly idealistic and wasteful

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The more I think of it roundtree has to go.

We constantly fail at the breakdown and our forwards are taught to take the ball statically (they all play differently for their clubs).

I'd scrap all the coaches to be honest.

 

[Crapspray]

^ on the topic of Hartley, there's a more general point here about dealing with our 'exiles' generally.

Its all very well laying down these rules e.g around off the field discipline and guys having to play in the premiership - but I think we have to ask whether it's a luxury we can afford.

I think if you're going to rule out the likes of Hartley, Tuilagi, armitage it should be on the understanding that for each player ruled out we have an alternative who is equally strong/ fulfills the same criteria. I currently don't think this can be said of the world cup squad without those 3 (in particular) and while its an admirably principled position to have, I see it as a bit foolish and ignorant of the bigger picture.

Whilst Wales have created a bit of a grey area with their selection I do quite like that there is room within the foreign selection policy to say actually this player is crucial to the squad and we will have to make an exception. To not do so just seems hopelessly idealistic and wasteful

I think Hartley's exclusion had some logic to it, missing the Fiji game, but has been shown up in practice. Wales have survived with two hookers despite the pummelling they've taken, and our warm-ups don't appear to have been massive in the final decisions; Cipriani helped turn a game on its head and was still left out. He's the only major loss of the policy though.

Tuilagi's has slowly been revealed to be a bit of cheap P.R. Though I'm glad Lancaster is showing some cynicism and guile, it's increasingly clear that Tuilagi was ruled out through injury anyway. At this point I don't think he can be considered an international prospect until he's injury-free for at least a season. We wasted 24 months planning on him coming back and it's been one of the chief causes of the midfield catastrophe (Tomkins at 13, Barritt at 13, Burrell at 13). Nice bonus if fit, but don't count on it.

Regarding the Toulon Blimp (he who must not be named), I don't think he's worth sacrificing the agreement with the PRL for. Whilst Andrew and the RFU deservedly draw flak, that has been a major boost to English Rugby over the last five or so years. U20s and a more competitive Premiership or Armitage? It's as simple as that. Carl Fearns is a bigger loss in my eyes.

From the scuttlebutt last year, the 'exceptional circumstances' clause is being taken out next time round: that should be the end of it.

 

[Wendigo7]

I'll prob get ripped to shreds for suggesting it but what about Robbie deans?

His early years with aus were pretty good, and as previous coaches have found out the wallabies players are not the easiest lot to handle.

Our creative 10's Cips and Ford offer more all round ability then Cooper IMO so can't see him not picking them.

It's just I can't see Baxter leaving yet before either getting Chiefs to the final and maybe even winning it.

Deans
King
Borthwick
Rowntree (maybe some one else but can't think of any ATM).

Woodward. Genuinely.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No not Woodward his suggested England teams previously have been awful.

Woodward maybe a higher type role maybe Andrews job but for head coach no.

Also can't stand how vocal he is about Armitage

The main plus point to him is he wants Slade and Cips in squad which most coaches would.

 

[Peat]

Have we actually missed Hartley? Anyone citing the make-up of our pack should consider Hartley's lineout problems in the 6N and consider whether it would be any different. Would he definitely be making a difference in the scrum? Would he have got sent off against Fiji?

Personally I would like to see Hartley dumped for good. Olyy, what's Tommy Taylor's throwing like?



As for the make-up of the pack, I actually think the mobility of our tight five has been a genuine strong point for England over the past four years and think that's something to build around - particularly as it compliments the new strength of our backline, which is searing pace. It means finding some faster back-rowers, but I am a-ok with that, and it means finding some big 12s who can pass and play international rugby, which might be nigh impossible although there's a few candidates, but I think that's our best option.

 

[French Tiger]

I wanted your opinion on the level of Webber, Wiggy and especially Barritt.

I find them really low. Wiggy has a good kicking game, but it slows the game too, it was not a good vision of the game. I prefer him Ben Youngs, Care, Simpson and even Harrison.

Barritt is strong, good tackler, but it's too limited offensively. And for 4 years, Lancaster had established a beautiful style of play (before changing the game plan against Welsh) and Barritt will clearly not benefit from this style of play. Honestly, it almost disappoints me every game I see England. Maybe with the Sarries he played better, but in France we did not get to see the Premiership matches (I already very difficult to see the Tigers play lol)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Woodward has been out of the game way too long, no way I'd take him.

Personally I would like to see Hartley dumped for good. Olyy, what's Tommy Taylor's throwing like?

Good, without being anything special. Better than Youngs/Webber's international form, though, and getting better as time goes on (being out with a knee injury as long as he was probably left him a long time to practise his darts).

 

[RedruthRFC]

Re: LCD, Yeandle starts ahead of him most of the time, and plays a similar game. George is surprisingly decent around the field.

I've championed Yeandle's cause on here before. Unfortunately of late, injuries appear to have hampered his progress as an AP player and in turn as a potential international. Hopefully he will soon be back demonstrating the kind of form that he was near the start of last season. It will be interesting to see if he regains his status as preferred starter and what happens from there. I hope he does, his throwing is clearly better and his carrying and breakdown work are marginally better too IMO. Surely one or the other need to move clubs sooner rather than later, which will be a massive wrench for whoever does (both came through the academy system of this tight knit club). One more tick in the Yeandle column - he has captained Exeter on occasion, so brings leadership qualities to the table.

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Woodward has been out of the game way too long, no way I'd take him.

I certainly wouldn't have him in a rugby role, but as a team manager or "performance director" maybe he would have something to offer. Saying that, maybe such an appointment would be devicive and undermine the head coach.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Tigsman, I was thinking of Robbie Deans and I could see it working. Only issue is that the Aussie pack has improved dramatically over a very short period of time, he had one of the worst Aussie packs ever.

On the squad I would look at is a more South African pack and it would utilise players like George, Attwood, Ewers, Itoje, Vunipola and Morgan. It wouldn't be too hard for them to adapt to and we should go back to dominant forwards play. For the 6 nations I would have
LH- Vunipola, Auterac
HK-George,Youngs, Not sure anyone of LCD/Haywood/Taylor
TH-Cole/Thomas/Sinkler
LK-Attwood/Launchbury/Slater then anyone of Symons/Kruis/Kitchener/Lawes whoever shows exceptional form
FL-Itoje/Ewers/Kvesic/Burgess
8-Morgan/Vunipola
SH-Youngs/Simpson/Robson
FH-Cips/Faz/Ford
IC-Tuilagi
OC-Slade/Joseph
W-May/Watson/Roko
FB-Brown/Taut/Cips

 

[msf]

Thomas and Vunipola will be 27 and 28, Auterac and Brookes 26 and 29. We don´t need the younger ones to come through.

The more I think about it it, the more I like the idea of putting Itoje and Clifford in the 6 nations squad right away, and in team as soon as possible. We shouldn´t worry about whether they are best options now, we should recognise that they have leadership potential and great ability, so that when the next World Cup comes around, at least one of them is established in the team and is ready to lead England at the 2023 World Cup, or if needs be (the problem with all the mature leaders is that they might not be the best in their position in 2019) at the 2019 one.