England Post-WC discussion

[McTallshort]

Well that solves it then, stud768 how do you fancy the England job?

 

[Peat]

What we've lacked in true world class we've made up for in the quantity of players at an acceptable standard.
I believe that conservative coaching has led to safe players being selected. Other, less safe players that have world class attributes and points of difference aren't chosen because of their perceived weaknesses meaning they don't develop. I think you become a world class player by consistently playing international rugby and having the capacity and mental attributes to improve. Our coaches are always on the back foot looking for the win so go for safe players.

I don't think a quantity at acceptable standard can make up for a loss of true world class.

You may have a point about not developing players with world class attributes because of their weaknesses; but I think there's plenty of examples of players with world class attributes getting picked and not developing. Not too many world class athletes either.

 

[Wendigo7]

Who would you pick from the side that could be world class, does stand up with a wide skill set.

Ford, slade, Joseph, Watson, vunipola, Youngs (debatable)

even if you do dispute those players having the potential, it's still in a small part of the team. A lot of brain dead decisions need to stop and a leader needs to come through. Clifford and Itoje come to mind immediately, even if they aren't in the side.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Manu to me could be world class.

If he can develop and show his passing game.

 

[Tony Manx]

Manu to me could be world class.

If he can develop and show his passing game.

He has to start playing again first and rarely do players, of any sport, reach previous heights after injuries of the duration has had to endure! Not saying he will not but the odds are not great!

 

[Wendigo7]

Supposedly the rumours to move to Toulouse are still going on as well. It's hard for me to say whether Manu will play for England again, at least in the short term.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Supposedly the rumours to move to Toulouse are still going on as well. It's hard for me to say whether Manu will play for England again, at least in the short term.

I know I did post it on the rumour section.

Tigers seem to think he wants to stay and we want him to stay so it's just meeting in the middle.

BUT I know he has a problem with Lancaster by the sounds of it. Which could well be a factor I don't know.

Haven't heard anything from Mauger though.

He has to start playing again first and rarely do players, of any sport, reach previous heights after injuries of the duration has had to endure! Not saying he will not but the odds are not great!

Don't disagree with that was just saying that he had world class attributes.

 

[stus768]

I don't think a quantity at acceptable standard can make up for a loss of true world class.

You may have a point about not developing players with world class attributes because of their weaknesses; but I think there's plenty of examples of players with world class attributes getting picked and not developing. Not too many world class athletes either.

I agree that you can't necessarily substitute class for quantity. But it does mean you can absorb injuries. Also the team plays at a consistent level or at least won't drop below a level. We've beaten Wales and Aus and we have a lot less class than either team.

The lack of development comes back to the coaches tho surely?

 

[stus768]

I know I did post it on the rumour section.

Tigers seem to think he wants to stay and we want him to stay so it's just meeting in the middle.

BUT I know he has a problem with Lancaster by the sounds of it. Which could well be a factor I don't know.

Haven't heard anything from Mauger though.



Don't disagree with that was just saying that he had world class attributes.

Rugby paper said Sarries offer of £400k is a lot more than Toulouse offering.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Didn't work for Tigers who seem to be changing ours ways in that department.

Think it was Pat Howard who said about tigers to win Europe that you need to WC players in each position to win it pretty much.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rugby paper said Sarries offer of £400k is a lot more than Toulouse offering.

Fissler also says lots of things.

Also says that Saracens are offering 400k to 450k. Which if it happens will cause a big punch up re the cap.

 

[stus768]

Fissler also says lots of things.

Also says that Toulouse are offering 400k and Saracens are offering 450k

I know he tends to make stuff up/state rumours as fact.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know he tends to make stuff up/state rumours as fact.

It's like the slater rumour saying we might lose him.

Then only says because he is out of contract.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anyway do Saints fans think Heywood will have a break out year this season.

I really rate him as a player.

 

[Wendigo7]

I want George as our 2. He does the basics very well and accurately and carries well.

Let's at least get the basics right as a starting point.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I don't mind Lancaster if he sets out a game plan and sticks with it. He has put out teams that show great attacking rugby, if he says yep that's what we are going for then fine. But it has too show immediately in the 2016 six nations.
Otherwise this next crop of players who look like they could be anything will be wasted for 2019.
If he isn't the man to do it then Baxter would be my choice, followed closely by Mallinder. If only Cotter was available, maybe the hurricanes coach Boyd ?
Farrell will probably move on, Rowntree I like and our forward pack on the whole has been good. Catt has got us doing great strike moves, but our attack doesn't seem that great, maybe give him Wade/Cips and JJ he will make us look world class, who knows ?
Players who need to be included post WC regardless of us getting out the group-
Henry Thomas, George (but actually starting), Itoje, Ewers, Kvesic, Simpson, Cips, Wade, Rokoduguni,

 

[Wendigo7]

I don't mind Lancaster if he sets out a game plan and sticks with it. He has put out teams that show great attacking rugby, if he says yep that's what we are going for then fine. But it has too show immediately in the 2016 six nations.
Otherwise this next crop of players who look like they could be anything will be wasted for 2019.
If he isn't the man to do it then Baxter would be my choice, followed closely by Mallinder. If only Cotter was available, maybe the hurricanes coach Boyd ?
Farrell will probably move on, Rowntree I like and our forward pack on the whole has been good. Catt has got us doing great strike moves, but our attack doesn't seem that great, maybe give him Wade/Cips and JJ he will make us look world class, who knows ?
Players who need to be included post WC regardless of us getting out the group-
Henry Thomas, George (but actually starting), Itoje, Ewers, Kvesic, Simpson, Cips, Wade, Rokoduguni,

Think they would have to go immediately. We can't waste another season on whether he's a nice guy. There's too much sentiment involved and the selection process and candidates chosen for the last 12 years have been completely wrong.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Might be in minority but I think Kitchener should be added in there.

19+stone
Quick and a good ball carrier
Not work horse but puts in a shift
Can run a Lineout
And a brilliant Lineout stealer.

Maybe not in 23 but IMO needs to be in the 31.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I also like him, but I would look at him possibly as a Croft replacement ? Though the issue is that Itoje and Ewers are massive at 6. Then Clifford gets added so no chance for him at 6.
Lock you have Launchbury,lawes and Attwood ? Then Symons comes in, how does he fit in then ?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally I wouldn't have Attwood in.

Symons will have to see how he gets on.

Will be interesting as I don't rate Irish front row to see how he performs.

Also don't think Clifford is ready for test match rugby yet.