[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[ratsapprentice]

I guess, but he has generally also performed well at European Cup knockout level, which is close to international standard.

I think that's often overplayed.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think that's often overplayed.

yeah, they are often high intensity but it's still a huge jump from HCup/SuperXV to test match rugby.

 

[Patchey]

Is amend that to 'closest to test rugby' tbh.

 

[91jmay]

I don't think anyone here was actually saying he should be called back, just hypothesising what might happen if he was. It was the press (well, Sky) who started that one...

Was nice of Saints to give him such an easy ride to remind us all how good he is though

I could have been 7/10 at fullback against us in that game. Clermont could have had 4 backs and won.

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yeah, they are often high intensity but it's still a huge jump from HCup/SuperXV to test match rugby.

Is it really a huge jump from playing against Toulon to playing against another NH test team? It is possible a step up but huge jump is over playing it for me.

 

[Peat]

yeah, they are often high intensity but it's still a huge jump from HCup/SuperXV to test match rugby.

Mm.

Super XV approaches it in the pace of the game, but clearly lacks the intensity. HCup is something of the other way around.

Quality levels - in terms of athleticism, skill, decision making - logically can't be as high as international rugby takes less people than HEC knockout rugby (you could make a very bad team out of all the people who have appeared in HEC finals in the last five years) and the athleticism is Goode's downfall I think.

That said - I have seen HEC games where you'd back both teams to beat Italy and they were playing like that.

 

[91jmay]

you not think Toulon would take Italy apart and beat Scotland as well?

 

[Peat]

you not think Toulon would take Italy apart and beat Scotland as well?

Mebbe. They have a bad tendency to underperform their potential. Clermont feel a little toothless outside their home ground compared to their pomp as well. European competition in general is just a little fallow in my reckoning.

 

[goodNumber10]

you not think Toulon would take Italy apart and beat Scotland as well?

well Leicester beat South Africa, and England beat the Crusaders neither game was as intense as a full test match.

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Is it really a huge jump from playing against Toulon to playing against another NH test team? It is possible a step up but huge jump is over playing it for me.

I don't think it's a defacto statement, you of course get some games that are right up there, as you do with SuperXv, AP and top 14 and Lions Tours etc... but i don't think it's the norm.

 

[j'nuh]

you not think Toulon would take Italy apart and beat Scotland as well?

Both teams playing to their best? Definitely.

To be honest, I think Toulon/Clermont would even have a shot against England/Wales/Ireland. I would back the international teams, but I see it being a close game.

I sometimes think that we make it too simple by saying international level is higher than European level is higher than Premiership level.

Generally, it's quite an easy ride playing for the top teams in Europe, the Toulons/Clermonts, because you are the big fish in the little pond. But being the star of a small team (e.g. Launchbury/Haskell for Wasps, Kvesic/Morgan for Gloucester), and taking the onus of trying to lead and drag a team up, is harder than working as a cog for England imo, because whilst your opponents lack the intensity of international rugby, so does your team. And Wasps/Gloucester are the small fish in the Premiership, whereas England is a medium-sized fish internationally.

I think that's why Morgan had a habit of showing better for England than Gloucester last year. Gloucester just didn't give him enough of a platform to show his ability.

That's not the whole picture, because it is true that intensity is higher internationally, and some players who can cope with it at club level struggle at international. But I also don't think it's as straight-forward as "international level is harder". Much easier to be Donald given an arm-chair ride by the All Blacks, than by Bath.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think the best comparison is Glasgow and Scotland. Glasgow are a decent team who can play some attractive rugby. Scotland aren't.

 

[91jmay]

well Leicester beat South Africa, and England beat the Crusaders neither game was as intense as a full test match.

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I don't think it's a defacto statement, you of course get some games that are right up there, as you do with SuperXv, AP and top 14 and Lions Tours etc... but i don't think it's the norm.

I was never saying it was the norm. Goode was excellent against Toulon who are better than a lot of Test teams, for me Scotland/Italy would lose 8/10 games played full throttle against them. So he is clearly Test standard and not some muppet as suggested in this thread.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That Tigers v SA game was a great one.

Manu's big breakout game playing @ 12

[video=youtube_share;ovH1U-JblIs]http://youtu.be/ovH1U-JblIs[/video]

Our team was
1) Stankovich, 2) Davies, 3) Castrogiovanni
4) Green (20), 5) Hemingway (20)
6) Parling, 7) Pienaar, 8) Brett Deacon
9) Youngs(20), 10) Mauger
12) Manu (18), 13)Forsyth (19)
11) J.Murphy, 14) Amoursino, 15) Hamilton

16) Chuter, 17) Cole, 18) Armes, 19) Hammond, 20) Tuqiri, 21) Grindal, 22) Tonks

V

South Africa XV
1) Steenkamp, 2) Ralepelle, 3) J. du Plessis,
4) Rossouw, 5) Bekker
6) Potgeieter, 7) Raubenheimer, 8) Johnson
9) Adams, 10) Pienaar
12) Olivier, 13) De Jongh
11) Nokwe, 14) Ndungane, 15) Rose

16) Maku, 17) Van Der Merve, 18) Hargreaves, 19) Deysel, 20) F.Hougaard, 21) Bosman, 22) Vijoen

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That pass by Tuilagi for the try was quite something.

 

[91jmay]

Tuilagi deft skills to set up Amoursino

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Maybe Mauger who was playing 10 inside many can bring those skills back to the fold and improve them.

Here hoping.

 

[Peat]

I was never saying it was the norm. Goode was excellent against Toulon who are better than a lot of Test teams, for me Scotland/Italy would lose 8/10 games played full throttle against them. So he is clearly Test standard and not some muppet as suggested in this thread.

Test standard means more than playing those too, Toulon don't play at that throttle, and Goode has been a muppet in an England shirt.

 

[91jmay]

Goode was very good against New Zealand when we won, he had a solid 2013 6NS before Cardiff where everyone was bad and did well against Ireland when he was thrust in. He isn't world class and is limited but can't believe he can be called a muppet. He is a solid player, 6/10 kind of job. Wouldn't want him starting and would take Watson as wing/FB cover at world cup but don't think he is tragic.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Watching that makes me think tuilagi has got worse over the years not better!

Just a note, even though he was playing 12 he ended up in the 13 channel a lot. Get him him back on form like that and he's an England shoe in

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeh trouble was MOC and England just used him as a battering ram generally and that game plan has stuck.

Also surprised that Youngs doesn't kick for goal more often.

 

[Patchey]

Parling at six for England!