England EPS 2016/17 season.

[BPM]

Well on the basis of what they've achieved so far, I wouldn't expect anyone to be convinced, but considering that Scrum Half has consistently been a position where we've lacked quality and depth, I'd like to see us doing more to develop the players that come through the age grades.

Chris Cook and Dan Robson are really the only ex-U20 internationals that have gone on to get any regular game time in the AP. According to ESPN, Ben Spencer has only made 12 starts in total since his debut for Sarries. Considering that he was/is highly-rated, I think it's fair to say that that's not really good enough.

From what I've seen myself, I'd say the young 9s with the most potential are James Mitchell at Sale, Henry Taylor at Saracens and Harry Randall at Gloucester (although I think his size will hold him back at senior level). I understand there's also a fair bit of hype around Rory Brand at London Irish, but I've only seen the odd snippet of him playing so I can't really substantiate that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think you'll find many on here that disagree with you about young SH's not getting enough chances.

Mitchell looked ****ing terrible for the u20s.

Conversely, Taylor looked very good.

 

[BPM]

Agreed. However, Mitchell's looked reasonable (considering his age and experience) when he's had chances in the AP. Taylor's had no chances ...

I'd hope that Mitchell is making the most of having Stringer around to learn from.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

With the lions being talked about how do you think Eddie will handle the Argentina tour I hope he goes full strength pretty much and keep a saxons tour somewhere for development.

Say
EPS
1) Genge, Marler, Mullan (Vunipola - Lions)
2) Taylor, Cowan-Dickie, Youngs/George (George for me could have a lions shot) (Hartley - Lions)
3) Hill, Sinckler, Brookes (Cole - Lions)
4) Kruis/Launchbury (can see one or the other being picked for lions), Ewels
5) Lawes, Williams (Itoje - Lions)
6) Robshaw, Clifford
7) Harrison, Underhill (Haskell - Lions)
8) Beaumont, Hughes. (Vunipola - Lions)
9) Robson, Youngs
10) Ford/Cips(Ford 50/50 lions), Slade (Faz - Lions)
11) Roko, Yarde
12) Manu, T'eo
13) JJ, Daly
14) May, Nowell/Wade (Watson - Lions, Nowell 50/50)
15) Brown, Haley

Saxons
1) Hepburn, Auterac
2) Heywood, McGuigan
3) Williams, Cooper-wooley/Collier
4) Attwood/Symons, Barrow
5) Kitchener, Ellis/Witty
6) Ewers, Jones
7) Evans, Kvesic
8) Gaskell, Evans/Morgan
9) Harrison, Spencer
10) Burns, Devoto
11) watson, Kibirige
12) Mallinder, James
13) Thompkins, Marchant
14) Addison, Lewington/Walker
15) Hammersely, Marshall.

That would be what i would like to see in the summer.

 

[Peat]

Personally I would rather he rested the majority of older regulars who don't make the Lions tour. If they are going to make the World Cup, they will need a rest between now and then; if they aren't, they will need replacing. In either case, this is the best chance we get to act on that.

I also think you're seriously underestimating the number of guys we'll lose to the Lions.

Will there be midweek matches on this tour?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You don't Think Binny will be with the Lions?
And you think Beaumont is beyond 4th choice/behind Gaskell whose not played 8 since leaving Sale?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally I would rather he rested the majority of older regulars who don't make the Lions tour. If they are going to make the World Cup, they will need a rest between now and then; if they aren't, they will need replacing. In either case, this is the best chance we get to act on that.

I also think you're seriously underestimating the number of guys we'll lose to the Lions.

Will there be midweek matches on this tour?

I prob am but honestly i wouldn't be surprised but who else do you think will be in the lions? (Don't know why i had Vunipola in that def will be in the lions).

Although i will say that only JJ, Brown, Robshaw have been regular starters in 32 that i would take.

although if the Argies want to use it more as a development tour then i would mix the saxons and EPs

You don't Think Binny will be with the Lions?
And you think Beaumont is beyond 4th choice/behind Gaskell whose not played 8 since leaving Sale?

I got Binny and Beaumont mixed up.

 

[Peat]

I'd say Joseph and Ben Youngs will also go. I'm also expecting to lose 2 locks. I think if Tuilagi is fit he goes too.

And depending on injury and form, Marler, the other locks and Robshaw are also all strong possibilities to me.

 

[BPM]

I think we'll lose quite a few to the Lions. By my reckoning we have 5 or 6 who I'd say are more or less definite to go (if fit), along with another 7 or 8 who will be thereabouts.

I don't think all of these will go by any means, but I'm going to pick my squad for the Argentina tour on the basis that none of the following are available due to Lions' selection:

Marler, M. Vunipola, Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, B. Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, Ford, Joseph, Nowell Watson.

I don't see why Argentina would look at it as a development exercise? They don't really have the depth to be that experimental either, so I think they'll put out more or less their strongest available side. My 32 man squad would be as follows:

1. Mullan / Genge
2. Taylor / Cowan-Dickie / Youngs
3. Hill / Brookes
4. Attwood / Barrow
5. Lawes / Ewels
6. Robshaw (c) / M. Williams
7. Haskell / Kvesic
8. Beaumont / Hughes / Clifford
9. Robson / Simpson
10. Cipriani / Slade
11. May / Yarde
12. Tuilagi / Te'o
13. Daly / Marchant
14. Rokoduguni / Wade
15. Brown / Goode

Even thinking a year down the line, there's unlikely to be many there with over 20 caps, so it's an inexperienced squad.

I don't see Robshaw or Haskell going with the Lions and as much as I'd like to see the likes of Evans and Underhill given an opportunity, I think the amount of experience we'd be losing needs to be compensated for somewhere and the back row seems a good place to start.

Robshaw or Attwood to captain the side. Care and Burrell miss out entirely on both squads.

My 30-man Saxons squad would be:

1. Hepburn / Rapava-Ruskin
2. McGuigan / Walker
3. Sinckler / Thomas
4. Symons (c) / Slater
5. Gaskell / Witty
6. Harrison / Jones
7. Underhill / Evans
8. Ewers / Chisholm, Chick or Mercer (whoever's performed best)
9. Harrison / Spencer
10. B. Burns / Lozowski
11. Addison
12. Mallinder / Devoto / J. Williams
13. Tompkins / James
14. Lewington / Earle
15. Haley / Hammersley

I'm going on the principle of using the Saxons as a development squad so there's only a handful of capped players in there (bolded) and I've also gone for younger players who arguably have a better chance of breaking through i.e. Witty ahead of Lees or one of Chisholm, Chick or Mercer ahead of Armand. Taking a bit of a punt on Earle coming good too.

Ludlam might be there or thereabouts if he can get some game time and I'd like to see Morgan and Eastmond hit enough form to be back in contention, but as crazy as it may sound for guys in their mid-late 20s, it might be a bit late for them.

Depth is pretty good really - others I considered for the Saxons were:

1. Auterac / A. Waller
2. Haywood / Neild (also covers flanker) / Thacker
3. Cooper-Woolley / Collier
4. Lees / Stooke
5. Kitchener / Ellis
6. Gibson / Nott
7. Wallace / Fraser / Ludlam
8. Morgan / Wilson
9. Care / Chudley / Young / Mitchell
10. Brophy-Clews / Malins
11. Short / Aspland-Robinson
12. Eastmond / Hill
13. Burrell
14. Ashton / Walker / Woodburn
15. Miller

Obviously some of that is a stretch. Not all of them are going to make it at test level (I've italicised the ones that I think have a shot) and I don't think I'd really want to put that last squad in to a serious international arena, but it's encouraging to see our depth in most areas. I'd say there's several there that could make it in to other teams' test squads.

It's apparent that we're very light on quality wingers beyond the EPS though ...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Hasn't the whole Underhill/exceptional circumstances been reconciled now? I.e. He won't be included in either EPS/Saxons until he finishes Uni in Wales and moves to an AP club. Likely 2018 at the earliest.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

he finishes his Uni course end of this season doesn't he?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Really? I thought he'd just finished his first year at Cardiff and unless he's planning to finish his degree in 2 years, most degrees are 3 years.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was under the impression it was the end of next season as well.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/meet-young-english-rugby-star-9836983

Well going by the date the above article was written he only swapped Gloucester for Bridgend when he transferred to Cardiff Uni in August 2015. So going by that he's just finished his first year. Doesn't say whether it's a 2 or 3 year degree he's doing, but I thought there was a lot of hoo hah about him being in Wales for 3 years, which would tie in with him doing a 3 year degree course. So he should graduate by Summer 2018 and then be free to sign and play for an AP club start of the 2018/19 season and included in the EPS or Saxons by then.

 

[Geordie]

Would Zac Kibirige have a chance in the Saxons?

He hasn't played in the first two games due to Sinotti and Goneva....but in pre season the guy showed he's in awesome shape and suffered no setbacks from his broken leg - he is seriously rapid.

And don't forget Marcus Watson - brother of Anthony - and one of our best players last season. Another cracking winger, seriously fast, works his backside off and very strong defensively aswell !

 

[ratsapprentice]

Didn't rate Kibirige very much in the U20's.

Hard to tell until he's played a few senior games.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I quite rate him TBH.

But he needs to be a ref in the 23 before Saxons.

 

[BPM]

Would Zac Kibirige have a chance in the Saxons?

He hasn't played in the first two games due to Sinotti and Goneva....but in pre season the guy showed he's in awesome shape and suffered no setbacks from his broken leg - he is seriously rapid.

And don't forget Marcus Watson - brother of Anthony - and one of our best players last season. Another cracking winger, seriously fast, works his backside off and very strong defensively aswell !

Yeah I don't see why not - same with Odogwu too I suppose.

I'm just reluctant to include players who haven't had the game time at AP level. Marcus Watson's obviously a slightly different case.

I guess Henry Purdy's another I could have included.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would like to see Walker get a go before all those that have been named TBH.

In terms of Wingers would like to see

EPS
Watson, Nowell, Roko, May

Saxons
Yarde, Addison, Walker,

I just don't know what to do with Wade TBH, wasted in the Saxons but I don't rate him enough for the EPS.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I would like to see Walker get a go before all those that have been named TBH.

In terms of Wingers would like to see

EPS
Watson, Nowell, Roko, May

Saxons
Yarde, Addison, Walker,

I just don't know what to do with Wade TBH, wasted in the Saxons but I don't rate him enough for the EPS.

Plop him in the ocean between wherever the Saxons and Seniors are playing and see where he ends up?