England EPS 2016/17 season.

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm with TigsMan re. Walker. He is proven at AP level and has a good record.

Having said that, I think Eddie seems to have a different view of the Saxons to previous England coaches.

In the past, the Saxons was a 'next best' set-up, but with a 45 man EPS, I see it more as a development side. There will always be exceptions, but for the most part, players who don't look like really going to make it at test level by 26/27 probably aren't going to cut it.

With the 'development pathway' looking more and more productive, I think we're better served using the Saxons as the half-way house between age grade and test level rugby to get the players in to an international set-up early and to complement experience that they're gaining in the AP. So as Which Tyler said - pretty much an U23 squad with a bit of experience in there provided by players genuinely on the fringes of the EPS (i.e. an Attwood or Cipriani) and/or senior players who have been out injured for a while.

I'd prefer this way too, England are currently the most successful nation in the world at age grade rugby but that fails to translate to the seniors. We've seen a vast improvement since 2007 as the products of age grade have filtered through but it still isn't good enough. Players that beat NZ at U20 find themselves being torn to shreds at senior level and I think part of that is down to the fact England have had a fragmented and incomplete development pathway. Saxons as a post-U20 but pre-senior primarily with almost-seniors adding some valuable experience is the best way. Saxons should be a genuine force that could make all T2 and even some T1 senior teams at least a bit nervous.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As a slight aside: I don't get the Yarde hype.
I know I've said this before, but I really don't. 3 tries last season in 15 games last season (per the stats above)? Lewington got 2 more while playing 1 less and for the worst side in the Prem.

 

[BPM]

As a slight aside: I don't get the Yarde hype.
I know I've said this before, but I really don't. 3 tries last season in 15 games last season (per the stats above)? Lewington got 2 more while playing 1 less and for the worst side in the Prem.

What Yarde hype?

He's got a decent record for England but he's not been up to much for Quins (although that's not entirely his own fault) and I don't think anyone here thinks he's anything special.

I'd still have him in the squad, but as a 4th or 5th choice.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Quins have been poor TBf, and i don't think he is a winger that could create something out of nothing i think he is a winger that works in the right system.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Agree with both of the above - he's a decent player.

I think Earle is going to come into consideration very, very quickly upon his arrival home (assuming he gets picked, that is ).

He is still properly rapid.

[video]https://youtu.be/Ludc8N-ogEA?t=118[/video]

You don't see it too much in that clip, but earlier on in the game he gassed his opposite winger on the outside in the same way that Carlin Iles does.

He's been playing really good rugby for them, see his work in the first Canterbury try here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9xZJkXOKgY
Here, at 3.04: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pBuEiNoxNs

101kg too.

Edit: found a clip of the outside break I was talking about - <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brilliant run from old Saracen <a href="https://twitter.com/natenate174">@natenate174</a> now at <a href="https://twitter.com/crfu">@crfu</a> - huge hit at the end too <a href="https://twitter.com/RugbyEng">@RugbyEng</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/RugbySaracens">@RugbySaracens</a> <a href="https://t.co/CD04iOwnze">pic.twitter.com/CD04iOwnze</a></p>&mdash; JudgeRugby (@JudgeRugby) <a href="https://twitter.com/JudgeRugby/status/774823262354284544">September 11, 2016</a></blockquote><script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Peat]

I have to say, I'm not sure I see a huge amount to tamper with when it comes to the Saxons. Young and talented kids get their game there already; we're talking about the proportions rather than whether they're at all. I think we'd all agree they need a decent core of experience and leadership to give them the best shot too. The results have been good; I don't think there's been any young guns who should have played that haven't because of an old git.

I also don't think handing a few more kids a few more Saxons games is the answer to the holes in England's development pathway.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What Yarde hype?

Many have said he should be one of our first choice wingers,
I don't even think he should be in the EPS.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I have to say, I'm not sure I see a huge amount to tamper with when it comes to the Saxons. Young and talented kids get their game there already; we're talking about the proportions rather than whether they're at all. I think we'd all agree they need a decent core of experience and leadership to give them the best shot too. The results have been good; I don't think there's been any young guns who should have played that haven't because of an old git.

I also don't think handing a few more kids a few more Saxons games is the answer to the holes in England's development pathway.

I mean the clear answer is a proper A League IMO, but that is a PRL thing.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lozowski being chased by Italy, would def be a great pick up for Italy whose 10 stocks are pretty meh.

England are well stocked but i could see (If he has a good couple of seasons with Sarries) him being 3rd choice 10 potentially.

Slade 10 performances for Exe this season have not been great, Cips if he isn't goal kicking will drop further down the rankings

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd hold off for a while if I was him, but I could definitely see it happening. He's unlikely to pick up more than a handful of caps for England, if he gets any at all.

Depends what it means for his club career, most likely.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would be interesting to see what COS could do with the Italian backline with Loz in it.

 

[Peat]

Feel like people are jumping the gun a little with Loz as a definite international but you can see why Italy are interested. I would in his shoes, assuming feelings of national identity were equally posed and I wanted a good international career first and foremost. Being 3rd choice England fly-half is likely to be a very meaningless mantle for the foreseeable. That said, his overall career might be better served by not doing internationals at all this season.

I mean the clear answer is a proper A League IMO, but that is a PRL thing.

Yup.

The two problems with a proper A league imo is that a) Its not gonna pay for itself and b) its competing with the championship for players.

The magic wand answer is to merge the two.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Feel like people are jumping the gun a little with Loz as a definite international but you can see why Italy are interested. I would in his shoes, assuming feelings of national identity were equally posed and I wanted a good international career first and foremost. Being 3rd choice England fly-half is likely to be a very meaningless mantle for the foreseeable. That said, his overall career might be better served by not doing internationals at all this season.



Yup.

The two problems with a proper A league imo is that a) Its not gonna pay for itself and b) its competing with the championship for players.

The magic wand answer is to merge the two.

Putting Prem second teams in lower ties domestic competitions caused a massive amount of ill feeling among football lower league fans, I could see it being similarly unpopular for rugby

 

[Peat]

Putting Prem second teams in lower ties domestic competitions caused a massive amount of ill feeling among football lower league fans, I could see it being similarly unpopular for rugby

Hence it being a magic wand answer.

Although what I'd actually do if I had a magic wand would be to to ringfence the top division and tell all the top clubs they're to pick a championship club to put a financial stake in and send players to, and then ringfence that division too. If a championship club doesn't want to surrender their autonomy like that, they're out and we'll find someone else who does.

Which would be incredibly unpopular but would, if people supported it, produce a better standard of rugby.

Of course, I'd need a magic wand.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You know what that sounds like, Peat?

That sounds like the NZ setup of Soup teams being fed by NPC clubs.

As you well know, It's the setup I'd prefer.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How it would work

Saints - Bedford
Bath - London Irish
Wasps - sale

 

[BPM]

I'd hold off for a while if I was him, but I could definitely see it happening. He's unlikely to pick up more than a handful of caps for England, if he gets any at all.

Depends what it means for his club career, most likely.

Exactly this. Ford (23) and Farrell (25) will be around for a good while yet, Slade (also only 23) has moved back to 10 with Exeter and Burns and Cipriani are considerably more experienced than Lozowski.

It could be some time before he's genuinely challenging to be England's third choice 10 and even then, he's not going to see a huge amount of game time in an England shirt.

I'd also question how much value Saracens would see in him playing for Italy though? He's been brought in as a young, high potential 10 to step in while Farrell is away with England (or injured). If he throws his lot in with Italy, he'll be away at the same time as Farrell, so he'd basically need to move again to get regular game time. That doesn't necessarily mean an Italian club, but if he wants to win things, he's probably better off staying with Sarries and trying to break in to the England set-up.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I could see him over taking Cips and burns if he has a good season though.

 

[BPM]

I could see him over taking Cips and burns if he has a good season though.

Possibly? I think one season probably isn't enough.

Beyond Ford and Farrell, we really have no idea of the pecking-order in Eddie's mind. Given Cipriani's Saxons selection, it would be logical to assume that he's next in line, but then he wasn't selected in the extended EPS, so it's really hard to tell. A good season at Wasps would definitely help him to cement that spot.

Having said that, IMO if Slade stays at 10 for Exeter and can recover his form, he's the obvious choice as the third option. He'd be regularly starting for a top 4 club and would also offer excellent cover as a centre as a bonus.

I've also got a lot of time for Freddie Burns (when he's fit) and he's been pretty decent when he has had chances with England. He's not long turned 26 and like Slade, he's the first-choice 10 at a leading club.

In all three cases, I'd argue they have a better chance than Lozowski, who won't be any more than Farrell's stand-in for the foreseeable future.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

On Slade as 3rd choice 10, I really hope not. I like him, but as a Chiefs supporter I can honestly say that a large part of why Chiefs have performed so badly so far this season is because he's been at 10. He's spent too much time at centre. I'm sure with more time at 10 he'd improve there, but I question how far Baxter will go with him before saying that enough is enough and re-instating Steeno.

I honestly think the best thing for Slade is a club change. I think most agree that he's a 12, but with Chiefs' 12 log pile he's not gonna get any game time there. Baxter also clearly prefers big crash Ballers at IC than play-makers so for Slade to move there would mean a complete change of game plan for Chiefs. One that I doubt Baxter will be willing to make. I'd hate to see him leave but in the interest of Slade and England he should do. Maybe a switch to Bath? They need a top quality 12 and Ford-Slade-JJ is a midfield that I am a fan of, both for England and potentially for Bath. It would be good for them to be getting game time together every week.