England EPS 2016/17 season.

[TRF_Olyy]

Saxons count ?

Only if they weren't already capped by the Saxons (so Gaskell, who'd captained, and Miller don't count).

 

[Maverick1987]

Nope.

The answer is no then

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

By its sheer size a 45 man squad isn't all that meaningful. Just a list of largely predictable names with the odd curveball thrown in. What it has done though is say to Kvesic, Ewers Cips and Wade that barring catastrophe they're not going to get a look in. All have their advocates but EJ's opinion is the only one that counts and he simply doesn't rate them.

Torygraph was reporting that Eddie sees Hughes as a 6. Hughes and Binny I don't want to see together. Hughes and Beaumont might be interesting.

 

[BPM]

By its sheer size a 45 man squad isn't all that meaningful. Just a list of largely predictable names with the odd curveball thrown in. What it has done though is say to Kvesic, Ewers Cips and Wade that barring catastrophe they're not going to get a look in. All have their advocates but EJ's opinion is the only one that counts and he simply doesn't rate them.

Torygraph was reporting that Eddie sees Hughes as a 6. Hughes and Binny I don't want to see together. Hughes and Beaumont might be interesting.

I agree with your opening statements, but I don't 100% agree on Kvesic, Ewers, Cipriani and Wade.

I think Eddie is looking to the long-term with Evans and Marchant. Neither are likely to play, so my assumption is that they are there to gain experience, learn the systems and understand what they need to do to break in to the side further down the line.

That means Kvesic was effectively competing with Harrison and Clifford, both of whom were ahead of him having been on the Australia tour. I think Kvesic is next in line and I would expect him to be the injury replacement for Haskell.

Ewers was probably competing with Hughes and Williams. It's harsh to leave him out entirely, but as all three are uncapped, they're competing on a level playing field and I think both offer similar positives to Ewers, but crucially offer ability in the lineout which he doesn't.

Cipriani is a very tough one. I can't see what more he can do? Over the past few years, he's pretty much taken his medicine and done whatever has been asked of him by both Lancaster and Eddie Jones. Personally I would have taken him over Simpson. I don't see why we need four options at scrum half?

IMO, Wade is rightly behind Watson, Nowell, May, Yarde and Rokoduguni. On pure attacking ability, he's probably the best of the bunch, but Watson, Nowell, May and Yarde (to a lesser extent) have all proved that they can score tries for England and so are rightly ahead of him. The Saxons tour was probably a straight shoot-out for the fifth wing spot between Wade and Roko and I think it's fair to say, Roko outshone him.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For someone who hasn't seen much of Williams and is a big fan of Ewers, can you give me a justification of his inclusion (I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I haven't seen much of Williams and would like to know more about him and what makes him good).

 

[BPM]

For someone who hasn't seen much of Williams and is a big fan of Ewers, can you give me a justification of his inclusion (I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I haven't seen much of Williams and would like to know more about him and what makes him good).

For me, they offer a lot of similar positives. Both are aggressive, abrasive blindside flankers with high work rates, hard-hitting defence and ball carrying-ability. I think the fact that Williams is able to provide capable cover at lock and is a good lineout operator, put him ahead slightly of Ewers. Not sure how they'd stack up in a foot race, but I think he's probably quicker across the ground than Ewers too.

Ewers is the better carrier I'd say, but thinking about it in a 'Top Trumps' way, they'd score similarly overall, but Williams' versatility edges it.

Having said all of that, I'd actually say Ewers has lost out to Hughes more than Williams IMO.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would say Williams is prob a bigger hitter than Ewers and Ewers is a better carrier than Williams.

Williams in terms of defence is pretty amazing and before his injury was my player of the season for Tigers at the time.

But as said I think Eddie see Ewers more against Hughes.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Full Squad Review:

LHP: Vunipola, Marler, Mullan, Genge
No surprises here. I am interested to see who Jones will give the edge to out of Marler and Vunipola though. Pre-Oz he seemed to agree with the general consensus that Vunipola was best deployed as an impact sub, but Oz may have changed his mind.

HK: Hartley, George, LCD, Youngs
Honestly, I'd forgotten that Youngs existed and was expecting Taylor to be the 4th hooker. I do question his inclusion, he's 29 years old and I can't see him getting in over George on the bench. So dropping a young hooker with a lot of potential seems unwarranted.

THP: Cole, Hill, Sinckler
This does make TH look bare. 1 uncapped and another with only 5, each of which have been 5-10 mins off the bench. I was expected Brookes to be included. God help us if Cole is injured, he may be our most valuable player ATM when you consider who we have to back him up.

L4: Itoje, Launchbury
L5: Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
I was surprised to see Ewels included over Attwood. Ewels is 8 years younger though, so for development purposes it makes sense. And with Itoje, Kruis, Launch and Lawes around, the 5th lock spot is going to be nothing other than development.
P.S isn't it great having 4 potential Lions locks.

BSF: Robshaw, Hughes, Williams
The exclusion of Ewers upsets me greatly, but if Williams is as good as people say he is, then I can live with it. Hughes is obviously the big talking point here. I can't see him at 6 TBH, especially with Billy at 8. The balance is off. I also think he's more at like than the 2nd and 3rd choice 8s (Beaumont, Clifford). Moving 1 of them to 6 with Hughes at 8 would make more sense to me, but oh well, if they're all in the squad I suppose it doesn't matter too much whether they're being considered at 6 or 8.

OSF: Haskell, Harrison, Evans
Oh Kvesic. You poor thing. I guess he just doesn't fit into what England want from their 7, it's probably time to say good bye to any vision of him in an England shirt. Although I suspect he'll be called up for Hask. It's good to see Evans included. It'll be interesting seeing the battle between him and Underhill when it comes around.

N8: Vunipola, Beaumont, Clifford
I've already given my thoughts on Hughes, I won't again. Pretty standard selection here. I'd like to see Beaumont overtake Clifford, I rate him very highly. Maybe more so than Vunipola, Mr One Dimension.

SH: Youngs, Care, Robson, Simpson
Good to see both Robson and Simpson included. The sooner we get Robson in an England shirt the better. 4 9s may be 1 too many though.

FH: Farrell, Ford
Only 2 10s irritates me. I'd have preferred Cipriani being in for Simpson. When it's likely that both our 10s will be starting games, it just seems like Jones is taking an unnecessary risk not having a spare. 45-men, we could've fitted in a 3rd 10 somewhere.

IC: Tuilagi, Slade, Te'o
Only 1 12 in the whole squad that regularly plays his rugby at 12 is concerning. Especially when the 2 others are far out of form. It'll be interesting seeing whether Jones continues with Ford-Faz or now opts for a centre to play there. Only having 2 10s would suggest we may actually be seeing 2 centres starting for the first time under Eddie (It's best to forget about the Burrell stint).

OC: Joseph, Daly, Marchant
I was surprised and disappointed that Marchant was chosen over Mallinder but I'm glad to see him in none the less. After JJ and Daly the 13 stocks were looking very bare, so it's good to see another option being developed.

LW: Watson, May
RW: Nowell, Roko, Yarde
Another area where I feel we could've done with one less and gained a 10, especially when we have 3 FBs as well. I'm hoping to see Roko get some game time, although it won't happen. He's England's best winger and is never deployed, it's upsetting really. Good to see May back in the fold, his pace has been missed. He was showing real improvement during the World Cup, I hope he's kept it up.

FB: Brown, Goode, Haley
Great to see Haley in as Brown is in such desperate need of replacing. Goode continues to be in merely as a placeholder. I'd rather see Cipriani at 15 then Goode continue to take up a place within the squad.

 

[Raggs]

Not surprised that Ewers is gone, just don't see what he offers over the other 8s, and don't think he has the pace to play 6, especially if the 8 is BV.

I am surprised that people still don't rate BV, but ah well.

Not sure that Roko outshone Wade in SA, Wade put in some good attack, and some fantastic defence. However, Roko is quite simply bigger, and that counts, and on his best form, a very good attacker, so not too upset. Very pleased to see May back, and suspect that May, Nowell and Watson will be our 3 wingers of choice moving forward.

Kvesic clearly has something that international coaches don't like. Whether it's a flaw in his game or his personality we can't know.

 

[TW27BA]

Shame for Cips being excluded. He can't do any more than he's done to impress. Was hoping Morgan would regain his form and provide BV with good competition again. But Beaumont appears the future.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Not surprised that Ewers is gone, just don't see what he offers over the other 8s, and don't think he has the pace to play 6, especially if the 8 is BV.

I look at Ewers similarly, he doesn't do any one think so much better than his competitors to force inclusion on that basis, so he needs to ask himself (or perhaps Eddie Jones might be a better idea) what he needs to do differently / better to warrant inclusion. Given the way that England played against Australia, I suspect that the answer might be "be a better athlete", which would be unfortunate for Ewers is it's the case as it's a tough thing to do (although maybe dropping a bit of weight might help). When I've seen him in the AP, I've felt like he's often a yard of two behind where he ought to be in the loose. In the AP, this enables him to make plenty of tackles and offer him self for plenty of carries, but it wouldn't fit so well with the up tempo, in your face style that England have adopted. I may be unfairly maligning him as the only time I've seen him live (where you get the best impression of what's going on off the ball) he was coming back from injury.

Agreed re: Kevesic too. Again in his position, I would be trying my best to get hold of the England camp and find out what I need to be doing differently.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I look at Ewers similarly, he doesn't do any one think so much better than his competitors to force inclusion on that basis, so he needs to ask himself (or perhaps Eddie Jones might be a better idea) what he needs to do differently / better to warrant inclusion. Given the way that England played against Australia, I suspect that the answer might be "be a better athlete", which would be unfortunate for Ewers is it's the case as it's a tough thing to do (although maybe dropping a bit of weight might help). When I've seen him in the AP, I've felt like he's often a yard of two behind where he ought to be in the loose. In the AP, this enables him to make plenty of tackles and offer him self for plenty of carries, but it wouldn't fit so well with the up tempo, in your face style that England have adopted. I may be unfairly maligning him as the only time I've seen him live (where you get the best impression of what's going on off the ball) he was coming back from injury.

Agreed re: Kevesic too. Again in his position, I would be trying my best to get hold of the England camp and find out what I need to be doing differently.

Suspect the answer for Kvesic would be to bulk up - which would probably significantly compromise the skills he already has, making it null and void. Iv'e always been a big fan but sadly suspect he's never going to be an England player.

 

[ncurd]

On the fly-half debate with Ford and Farrell the clear number one and two for years to come I fail to see any benefit of giving anyone else a place in the EPS. Take Cips the most likely candidate how does he benefit from being part of EPS? He isn't going to make the bench unless Ford or Farrell are injured and he can called up if they do there is no one else really out there competing for top honours. Also Cips isn't going to be learning the England systems anymore than if he's a let call up. No need to make him a glorified tackle bag holder.

Until there is clear young 3rd 10 to take over next we won't be seeing anyone there I suspect.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

On the fly-half debate with Ford and Farrell the clear number one and two for years to come I fail to see any benefit of giving anyone else a place in the EPS. Take Cips the most likely candidate how does he benefit from being part of EPS? He isn't going to make the bench unless Ford or Farrell are injured and he can called up if they do there is no one else really out there competing for top honours. Also Cips isn't going to be learning the England systems anymore than if he's a let call up. No need to make him a glorified tackle bag holder.

Until there is clear young 3rd 10 to take over next we won't be seeing anyone there I suspect.

I disagree. Flyhalf is such an integral role that you want your backup training with the squad, getting used to running the systems and the players used to playing off of him.

We don't need four scrumhalfs and we don't need three specialist fullbacks (especially as most of the wingers can cover there in an emergency and Watson got name dropped as a future fullback). Dropping Goode or Simpson for Cipriani makes a ton of sense.

 

[Peat]

Yeah. I'd rather have my 3rd choice 10 in the squad than my 4th choice scrum-half, loosehead or hooker.

Its not a huge deal but it is a little weird.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Joe Simpson is 28 years old. With Youngs, Care and Robson in front of him he's not getting back in an England shirt.
Alex Goode is 28 years old. Brown is ahead of him and Haley, Watson and Nowell are the future. If, after a Prem Player of the Season award didn't get him back in an England shirt then nothing will.
Tom Youngs is 29. Hartley, George and maybe LCD are all in front of him. He's too old for a comeback.
Semesa Rokoduguni is 28. Nowell, Watson, May and Yarde are all 26 or younger. With Nowell and Watson starting regularly, and Jones having shown that Yarde is his 3rd choice winger, Roko isn't getting in an England shirt.
Ben Te'o is 29. Tuilagi, Slade and Farrell are all ahead of him and at 29 he's not making a comeback.

All it takes for Cipriani to be needed in the 23 is an injury to Ford or Farrell. Yet all of these players who have no chance of getting into an England shirt were selected over him, with 2, 3 or 4 players in front of them for selection. At least one of the previously listed could've made way for him. Especially when 10 is such a vital position. You can slot any centre or fullback into wing, yet there's 5 of them and only 2 10s. You can't put anyone other than a 10 at 10.

I'm not one of those people who is always shouting and having a fit when Cips isn't selected, he is undeniably behind Faz and Ford, but only selecting 2 10s in a 45 man squad is ludicrous. The All Blacks have 3 of them in a 32 man squad. Cips should've been selected.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Joe Simpson is 28 years old. With Youngs, Care and Robson in front of him he's not getting back in an England shirt.
Alex Goode is 28 years old. Brown is ahead of him and Haley, Watson and Nowell are the future. If, after a Prem Player of the Season award didn't get him back in an England shirt then nothing will.
Tom Youngs is 29. Hartley, George and maybe LCD are all in front of him. He's too old for a comeback.
Semesa Rokoduguni is 28. Nowell, Watson, May and Yarde are all 26 or younger. With Nowell and Watson starting regularly, and Jones having shown that Yarde is his 3rd choice winger, Roko isn't getting in an England shirt.
Ben Te'o is 29. Tuilagi, Slade and Farrell are all ahead of him and at 29 he's not making a comeback.

All it takes for Cipriani to be needed in the 23 is an injury to Ford or Farrell. Yet all of these players who have no chance of getting into an England shirt were selected over him, with 2, 3 or 4 players in front of them for selection. At least one of the previously listed could've made way for him. Especially when 10 is such a vital position. You can slot any centre or fullback into wing, yet there's 5 of them and only 2 10s. You can't put anyone other than a 10 at 10.

I'm not one of those people who is always shouting and having a fit when Cips isn't selected, he is undeniably behind Faz and Ford, but only selecting 2 10s in a 45 man squad is ludicrous. The All Blacks have 3 of them in a 32 man squad. Cips should've been selected.

Unless Slade is training as a 10? Has jones stated anywhere that Slade is a centre?

Otherwise completely agree with the above. You need three 10s that know the systems for an international team.

 

[BPM]

Yeah. I'd rather have my 3rd choice 10 in the squad than my 4th choice scrum-half, loosehead or hooker.

Its not a huge deal but it is a little weird.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I'd have taken Cipriani over Simpson, Mallinder over Marchant, Attwood over Ewels and Taylor over Youngs, but I've no massive gripes with Eddie's selection.

To be fair, I think we've forgotten how good Youngs could be - he was many people's first choice over Hartley pre-injury and 29 isn't actually that old for a Hooker. I'd still have taken Taylor, but I'm not unhappy to see Youngs back.

I think we all need to bear in mind is that this is a 'provisional squad'. The real thing isn't named until September 30th so I don't think it's entirely implausible that there may be one or two tweaks.

In fact, I think it's quite possible that Eddie will take a look at some of the new faces and decide they're either not ready or don't offer what he thought they might.

I would imagine Kvesic will come straight in as an injury replacement for Haskell and there's 3 AP games to be played before the EPS is finalised, so it's possible other injuries may be picked-up (hopefully not).

Also, if one of the unpicked players starts the season in amazing form in comparison to someone named in the provisional squad, it's not crazy to think Eddie might change his mind.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also, if one of the unpicked players starts the season in amazing form in comparison to someone named in the provisional squad, it's not crazy to think Eddie might change his mind.

Cips at Wasps for this? I think he has the best chance of being one of the changes. He has done all he can in the few occassions he has been able to put on an England shirt recently. I don't want him as our main 10 as Ford-Farrell are the future (exactly in what form remains to be seen) but cips certainly merits being involved as an injury replacement if nothing else.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Unless Slade is training as a 10? Has jones stated anywhere that Slade is a centre?

Otherwise completely agree with the above. You need three 10s that know the systems for an international team.

If Slade is training as a 10 then that's another problem rather than a solution. As far as I'm aware he hasn't started at 10 since the pools of the European Cup. He hasn't consistently played 10 since the U20s so to expect him to go from being a club 13 to a 3rd choice international 10 is simply unrealistic and an unreliable plan. Luckily it seems that with Exeter's building pile of centres, Slade will get more 10 game time, but until he consistently starts there for Chiefs, he simply can not be considered there for England.

What Jones' selection shows us regarding Slade's position is that he is definitely preferred as a 12 to a 13, which was always assumed but never confirmed. Marchant over Mallinder shows that 13 is where Eddie needed a 3rd option, so Slade isn't being considered there, which is a big thumbs up.