England EPS 2016/17 season.

[Which Tyler]

In Brookes, Thomas and Wilson - we have 3 international class THPs struggling to come back to form after injury. I think it's a reasonable chance that at least one of them will be ready by November. If all 3 succeed, then added to Cole, Hill and Sinkler we're suddenly right back up to having an embarrassment of riches at THP.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I must have missed Thomas becoming international class. His scrummaging's not good enough. Ditto Sinkler and they've both been around a little while now. Probably ditto Hill too at the moment - lots of potential, but that's all it is right now. His selection was injury driven; if Brookes is anything like, Hill won't even be first choice at his club for a while yet. That's fine, let him learn his trade for a year or two - it's very hard for a sprog prop in the international game. BTW Cole was closing in in 23 before he debuted. Leonard was an exception, but he is to every rule!

 

[BPM]

Thomas is a funny one. He hasn't looked that great for Bath but he's always played pretty well when he's been given a chance with England. I wouldn't want him starting and he's 4th or 5th choice for me, but I think it would be unfair to suggest that he's looked out of place at test level.

I agree on Hill and I'd sooner see him gradually developed rather than over-played at 21. That said, the difference with Cole and Hill is that Cole pretty quickly became first choice at a young age whereas we're looking at Hill as a high potential back up to more experienced options.

Sinckler's a different player altogether - he's stronger outside of the set piece at the moment. I agree that his scrummaging needs to improve to be a contender at test level, but I think he's seen as a possible impact sub in a similar way to Mako was used earlier in his career.

We don't have 4 or 5 fully test ready tight heads right away, but realistically who does? I also don't think the cupboard is bare by any means and I think at least a couple of these have the potential to replace Cole in the longer term.

 

[SWAGGER]

45 man elite + 20 man development squads

If the rumours are true. That they will be 45 man elite squad and 20 man development squad i would go for.
45 man elite squad:
1) Vunipola, Marler, Mullan
2) Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
3) Cole, Hill, Brookes
4) Itoje, Lawes, Lees
5) Kruis, Launchbury, Attwood
6) Robshaw, Hughes, Ewers
7) Harrison, Kvesic, Hask: injured so Underhill/Evans: Depending on Underhill's availability
8) Vunipola, Clifford, Beaumont

9) Youngs, Care, Robson
10) Farrell, Ford, Cips
11) Nowell, Yarde, Ashton
12) Tuilagi, Te'o, Devoto
13) JJ, Daly, Slade
14) Watson, Roko, Wade
15) Brown, Haley, Goode

20 man development squad
1) Genge, Auterac
2) Taylor, McGuigan
3) Sinckler, Cooper-Woolley
5) Ewels
4/6) Williams, Nott
7) Evans/Ludlam Depending on Underhill's availability as Evans may be in the 45 if unavailable
8) Chisholm

9) Spencer
10) Burns
11) Lewington/Addison if Lewington is injured
12) Mallinder, Hill
13) Marchant, Tompkins
14/15) Malins, Hammersley

Impressive 65 man squad with a good blend of experience and youth. So I ask the forum whats the verdict on these squads ????????

 

[BPM]

Good squads. I hadn't actually heard that there would also be a 20 man development squad.

I don't think it'll be quite as simple as picking 3 players in each position though.

My take is as follows:

Forwards (25)

1. M. Vunipola / Marler / Mullan / Genge
2. Hartley / George / Cowan-Dickie / Taylor
3. Cole / Brookes / Hill
4. Itoje / Lawes
5. Kruis / Launchbury / Attwood
6. Robshaw / Hughes*
7. Clifford / Harrison / Kvesic / Underhill / Evans
8. B. Vunipola / Beaumont

Backs (20)

9. Youngs / Care / Robson
10. Ford / Cipriani
11. Nowell / May
12. Farrell / Tuilagi / Te'o / Mallinder
13. Joseph / Daly / Slade
14. Watson / Yarde / Rokoduguni
15. Brown / Goode / Haley

I've based my selection on Eddie's recent interviews and some logical assumptions so Evans and Mallinder are promoted from the U20s and Taylor, Attwood, Roko and Haley are promoted from the Saxons.

I've listed them as I would expect them to line-up against SA, so Farrell is in there as a 12 rather than a 10.

7 flankers obviously looks like a lot, but arguably Clifford or Hughes could be listed as 8s and from everything I've read, I think Underhill is nailed-on as soon as his eligibility for selection is confirmed, with Evans also making it. If not, I could see Sinckler as a fourth tight head at the expense of one of Kvesic, Underhill or Evans.

Ewers missing out is a tough call, but I'd see him competing with Hughes for one spot and I think Hughes' lineout capabilities would put him ahead.

If we go with a sixth lock, I'd go for Symons or Barrow ahead of Lees.

The development squad is hard to select without knowing more detail. Is it a Saxons style mix of 'next-best' and up-and-coming players, or is it young players under 25, who we're looking to get in to the England environment?

Assuming it is the latter, I'd go for:

1. Hepburn / Auterac
2. McGuigan / Walker
3. Thomas / Sinckler
4. Ewels
5. Barrow
6. Williams / Nott
7. Ludlam
8. Jones

9. Spencer
10. Burns
11. Addison
12. Devoto / Hill
13. Tompkins
14. Wade
15. Hammersley

The oldest in there are 25 (Burns and Thomas). 13 was the hardest to pick - I've gone for Nick Tompkins based upon his Saxons performances but I could easily have picked Sam James or Joe Marchant.

Sam Jones is kind of a utility back rower for me, but he played as an 8 for the Saxons and I think he's likely to see more game time than Chisholm (particularly with Haskell's injury).

 

[curtbob7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36884250

Great news.

English Rugby is doing absolute bits at the moment.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Looks like the RFU were pretty genuine in wanting to shake things up after the last world cup. Not a revolutionary change but an evolution and it feels like we are moving in the right direction. The club game will still be strong but we may see a more sustainable future for England. It would be nice to be like the ABs and be consistantly excellent rather than having golden eras mixed with poor eras.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The Graun are reporting that the new agreement means Underhill can't be picked - apparently the "Exceptional Circumstances" clause has been replaced by one only allowing for overseas players in an injury crisis.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The Graun are reporting that the new agreement means Underhill can't be picked - apparently the "Exceptional Circumstances" clause has been replaced by one only allowing for overseas players in an injury crisis.

Torygraph had the same story and clarified that exceptional circumstances were always intended to be injury related only. So why it wasn't drafted that way in the first place is a mystery and would have saved a thousand chubby flanker threads.

On less well padded open sides, I hope Underhill quickly finds an AP club.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ignore - accidental duplicate

 

[ratsapprentice]

I still don't understand how there was confusion over that clause in the first place.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Same,
I don't get why people were thinking "exceptional circumstances" meant "I like this other player more"

 

[ncurd]

Have they actually defined what constitutes an 'injury' crisis?

Massive difference for us between amount injuries we can sustain at lock to say openside flanker before we begin to worry the best option is in France.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It doesn't matter, it's basically "when hell freezes over"/"when the team plane crashes and they eat each other to survive".

Always was, and it was obvious given who the clause is imposed on behalf of.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

One would have thought a guarantee from Underhill that he will join an AP club once his studies finish would be sufficient to allow his selection? When are his studies supposed to finish (ie when can we expect him to move?)

 

[Which Tyler]

Just finished first year hasn't he? so 2 more years.
Personally I'd have thought he'd need to have signed a contract with a Prem club; I also think that the commute to Bath, Bristol or Gloucester is perfectly realistic whilst he still lives/studies in Wales, so could very easily move clubs next summer - IF he wants to do that. I suspect there's a fair bit of goodwill between himself and the Ospreys to be taken into account as well.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just finished first year hasn't he? so 2 more years.
Personally I'd have thought he'd need to have signed a contract with a Prem club; I also think that the commute to Bath, Bristol or Gloucester is perfectly realistic whilst he still lives/studies in Wales, so could very easily move clubs next summer - IF he wants to do that. I suspect there's a fair bit of goodwill between himself and the Ospreys to be taken into account as well.

I keep thinking you're French

 

[Every Time Ref]

One would have thought a guarantee from Underhill that he will join an AP club once his studies finish would be sufficient to allow his selection?

Apparently not.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hasnt he already said he's not interested in leaving ospreys early?

 

[Peat]

Same,
I don't get why people were thinking "exceptional circumstances" meant "I like this other player more"

Because there were times when Lancaster gave the impression it was so, although at times he said other things.