England becoming contenders

[j'nuh]

Great as this all is, Tuilagi plays at 13 for Leicester and Barritt plays 12 at Saracens... Why screw about with that?

(And before any smart arses say anything- yes, I know Lancaster has already done that)

Barritt-Tuilagi may be our best center partnership now, and I wouldn't change that at the minute, but a lot of talent is going to go to waste if we can't find a way of incoporating the likes of Trinder, Daly, May, Joseph and possibly even Tait if he gets some more action, in the same team as Tuilagi. The reason I'd like Tuilagi to play at 12 is that whereas all the aforementioned players wouldn't suit the 12 gamestyle, Tuilagi would. We don't have anywhere near the kind of depth at 12 as we do at 13.

Also Tuilagi at 12 gives us many more options in terms of a gameplan. We could start with a ballcrasher (Tuilagi) at 12 with a creative player at 13 and then halfway through the match bring on a distributor at 12 and move Tuilagi to 13.

 

[Zed]

Barritt-Tuilagi may be our best center partnership now, and I wouldn't change that at the minute, but a lot of talent is going to go to waste if we can't find a way of incoporating the likes of Trinder, Daly, May, Joseph and possibly even Tait if he gets some more action, in the same team as Tuilagi. The reason I'd like Tuilagi to play at 12 is that whereas all the aforementioned players wouldn't suit the 12 gamestyle, Tuilagi would. We don't have anywhere near the kind of depth at 12 as we do at 13.

Also Tuilagi at 12 gives us many more options in terms of a gameplan. We could start with a ballcrasher (Tuilagi) at 12 with a creative player at 13 and then halfway through the match bring on a distributor at 12 and move Tuilagi to 13.

Tuilagi would be great at 12, but you would need a genuine 13 outside him, not another crash ball centre with no pace, no sidestep and no invention. What makes Tuilagi a great 13, is he's big and quick and hard to stop when moving at full pace in the 13 channel. The try he scored against Ireland in the WC warm up game (?) exemplified that beautifully. Most English centres wouldn't be able to score that try, they either lack pace or power or aggression. Barrit at 12, Tuilagi at 13. He can always be used at 12 for certain 1st phase moves.

 

[TrueSlawter]

I think England get treated quite unfairly on the whole, we beat Scotland with 6 debutants away at Murrayfield, something that hasn't been achieved for 8 years. So we might have appeared to have struggled but we have got two wins under our belt. I can imagine the hysteria if Scotland or Italy had gone to Twickenham with 6 debutants and pulled off a win even be it with a slender margin.
I don't think we can pass judgement on England until after the Wales game and even if they do lose which is a possibility then that will be just another learning curve for a very young team.

The difference is simply that England are expected to beat Scotland and Italy tbh.. Even with new players. Whereas who honestly expects the current Scottish / Italian team (with new players as you stated) to goto Twickenham and get a win? I'm gonna throw out a guess and say no-one tbh.

 

[Sorp111]

I would like to see Flood/Barrritt/Tuilagi. However, I would be (pleasantly and very) surprised if Lancaster drops Hodgson and Farrell. Neither has done anything wrong, it could be argued both wins would have been losses without the charge downs and nerveless kicking. I am also not sure that Botha should make way for Lawes who looked a bit out of sorts against Gloucester at the weekend.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I watched the full Tigers game on the Aviva site yesterday.
I don't know if it's because Flood is only 2 games back from injury, but he is not ready to take any role in the England side on current form.

 

[djames6]

The fact that England have so many debutants is a criticism of the previous management who should have been looking forward even when trying to win an RWC. All this nonsense about England being a young side, are they any younger than Wales or Scotland, if they are its fractional. I suspect if Laidlow and Hogg had started against England then the result would have been different.

Even if England beat Wales, there is a chance, they will still be a very average side with hardly any Lions contenders.

 

[Saintjay]

The fact that England have so many debutants is a criticism of the previous management who should have been looking forward even when trying to win an RWC. All this nonsense about England being a young side, are they any younger than Wales or Scotland, if they are its fractional. I suspect if Laidlow and Hogg had started against England then the result would have been different.

Even if England beat Wales, there is a chance, they will still be a very average side with hardly any Lions contenders.

So when Gatland was pretty much being forced to pick younger players as the older squad members were simply not good enough the same criticism could be aimed at Wales.

 

[HowieLO6]

Tuilagi would be great at 12, but you would need a genuine 13 outside him, not another crash ball centre with no pace, no sidestep and no invention. What makes Tuilagi a great 13, is he's big and quick and hard to stop when moving at full pace in the 13 channel. The try he scored against Ireland in the WC warm up game (?) exemplified that beautifully. Most English centres wouldn't be able to score that try, they either lack pace or power or aggression. Barrit at 12, Tuilagi at 13. He can always be used at 12 for certain 1st phase moves.

Currently, you're probably right, but there is a new generation bubbling under nicely. Jospeh should certainly get a look in the long-run, as should Daly. While neither currently carry the so-called ideal size (C.6ft, shy of 15st), they both have bags of pace and a wicked sidestep to boot. I've always been a fan of the 10-cum-12 player on the inside, but maybe I need to keep up with the times.

but is this a moot point? If Leicester aren't playing him on the inside, can he be expected to slot in there at international level?

 

[TedParker]

I think the half back pairing is a far bigger talking point than the centres. Its vital that Dickson should start. Farrell at 10 should be a serious consideration as well.

 

[Robert Prosser]

So when Gatland was pretty much being forced to pick younger players as the older squad members were simply not good enough the same criticism could be aimed at Wales.

You find it was there were more than a few who wanted him out of a job at pne point when we were going through the transitional period into what we have got now, and now Wales is still not at full tilt we are still like England a young improving team, I think personaly Wales will beat England and it will be a good game, p.s. I heard today from a little insider North is going to be fit

 

[Saintjay]

You find it was there were more than a few who wanted him out of a job at pne point when we were going through the transitional period into what we have got now, and now Wales is still not at full tilt we are still like England a young improving team, I think personaly Wales will beat England and it will be a good game, p.s. I heard today from a little insider North is going to be fit

It seems most of the Wales squad may be fit which is great news for them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I heard today from a little insider North is going to be fit

Would that be everyone who follows him on twitter?

 

[Saintjay]

For this weekend.

Players released for club duty: Mike Brown, Joe Marler, Jordan Turner-Hall (all Harlequins), Calum Clark, Paul Doran Jones, Courtney Lawes (all Northampton), Toby Flood, Manu Tuilagi, Thomas Waldrom (all Leicester), Lee Mears (Bath), Ben Morgan (Scarlets), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester), Joe Simpson, Rob Webber (both Wasps), Matt Stevens (Saracens).

Would sending the above of Flood, Lawes, Tuilagi, Morgan indicate that they may not start against Wales?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Flood, Lawes and Tuilagi will be to get game time/match fitness.
Presumably Morgan is to get more game time. All my fingers and toes crossed it's not ruling him out of starting...
Maybe Scarlets have asked if they could have him back, and England have obliged? I presume that's why Palmer has gone back to Stade Francais, after starting the last two matches.

 

[Saintjay]

Flood, Lawes and Tuilagi will be to get game time/match fitness.
Presumably Morgan is to get more game time. All my fingers and toes crossed it's not ruling him out of starting...
Maybe Scarlets have asked if they could have him back, and England have obliged? I presume that's why Palmer has gone back to Stade Francais, after starting the last two matches.

I hope so, like you I had that sinking feeling upon seeing Morgan sent back.

 

[Aedaphon]

If we've not got Morgan in the squad that is a colossal f***-up <_<

One of the few bright sparks on the weekend- he deserves a start.

 

[Captain Leisure]

You could call England contenders based on the fact that they're level on points at the top of the table.

As to how good are they? I think it's the poorest England side I can remember since about 1977.

What's GOOD:

Strong Scrum.
Capable Tackling.
Owen Farrell place-kicks accurately.

That's it really.

What's BAD:

Pretty much everything else.


England have not looked like creating a try - against the two poorest sides in the 6N. We keep hearing about how Charlie Hodgson is the greatest passing fly-half in the Premiership. Well he's not at international level. Anyway, Saracens just kick it in the air and run after it.

Schalk Brits sums it up in the Telegraph:

Question: Schalk, there are a lot of your Saracens team-mates in that England backline, are England making the most of them?
SB It is pretty much the same boring rugby! At Saracens we kick it a lot and tackle the life out of everybody. That is our focus point.

The back three never see enough of the ball to be a threat. Hodgson occasionally kicks cross field to Strettle but we may as well put Banahan out there if that's the only tactic. I think Foden is probably England's most talented player. The interception against Italy was born out of his frustration as he tried to force things. Calling for Brown to replace him is pointless. Brown standing doing nothing is as ineffective as Foden standing doing nothing. Anyway, since when did in-form Aviva players mean guaranteed international performances?

Robshaw to continue as captain? OK, he's struggled manfully against sub-standard opposition in two scratchy wins. Should that mean he's skipper for the rest?

Much as I'd love England to win, a good hammering by Wales might knock some sense into everybody. <_<

 

[Peat]

Flood, Lawes and Tuilagi will be to get game time/match fitness.
Presumably Morgan is to get more game time. All my fingers and toes crossed it's not ruling him out of starting...
Maybe Scarlets have asked if they could have him back, and England have obliged? I presume that's why Palmer has gone back to Stade Francais, after starting the last two matches.

I'm not reading too much into Morgan going, as he's not had the most gametime going although its not a great sign, but Palmer going back and Parling not looks like a massive clue... or a typo I suppose.

 

[Zed]

Currently, you're probably right, but there is a new generation bubbling under nicely. Jospeh should certainly get a look in the long-run, as should Daly.

Yeah unfortunately we don't get the premiership rugby in OZ (just French league) so we don't get to see up and coming players.

While neither currently carry the so-called ideal size (C.6ft, shy of 15st), they both have bags of pace and a wicked sidestep to boot

I don't think you necessarily have to be a big unit to play international 12/13, speed is obviously a huge asset to have. I'd probably prefer someone quick with a sidestep rather than a big lump that just bashes it up. You look at James O Connor - 85kg 5'10, not particularly big.

I've always been a fan of the 10-cum-12 player on the inside

I think that is always a good thing to have, a 12 that can slot in at 10, take the pressure off him. I think Englands problem in the past, is that they stick an out and out fly half in at 12. Neither JW nor Flood are inside centres, they don't have the pace or power needed. You need to have a genuine 12, that could slot in at 10 if need be, not the other way around.

 

[Zed]

England have not looked like creating a try - against the two poorest sides in the 6N. We keep hearing about how Charlie Hodgson is the greatest passing fly-half in the Premiership. Well he's not at international level. Anyway, Saracens just kick it in the air and run after it.

As to how good are they? I think it's the poorest England side I can remember since about 1977.

Yeah I think they've been poor other than 20 mins in the 2nd half against Italy. But saying that, the weather has been sh*t. A new side, in pretty bad conditions against 'tricky' opposition away from home. But it's important SL recognises they have been playing crap, their tactics and skill level have been poor and does something about it. They carry on playing like they have been they'll lose badly against France, Wales and Ireland. They need to drop Hodgson and Farrell. Farrell is not a centre - you need someone to be making line breaks, he doesn't do that. Tuilagi/Barrit/Flood would be the best combination. They also need to address their tactics - up & unders and hoping the opposition drop it, is just not going to win you many games.