England are not the only ones ...

[Nathaniel Langham]

In Australia their is a lot of press given to England using players from other countries in their Rugby and Cricket teams but very little is ever said of Australian teams doing the same. So I thought that I would have a quick look through their world cup squad and see who was not born in Australia. Also a couple of old players at the top.

George Musarurwa Gregan (born 19 April 1973 in Lusaka,Zambia)

Lote Daulako Tuqiri Born 23 September 1979 (age 31) Korolevu, Fiji

Digby Ioane Date of birth 14 July 1985 (age 26) Place of birth Wellington, New Zealand

Quade S. Cooper Date of birth 5 April 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Tokoroa, Waikato, New Zealand

William Genia Date of birth 17 January 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea

Radike Samo (b. 9 July 1976 in Nadi, Fiji

David Pocock Date of birth 23 April 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Gweru, Zimbabwe

Daniel Vickerman (born 4 June 1979 in Cape Town, South Africa)

Sitaleki Timani (born 19 September 1986 in Navutoka, Tonga)

Dean Mumm (born 5 March 1984 in Auckland, New Zealand)

Pekahou J. M. Cowan Date of birth June 2, 1986 (age 25) Place of birth Wellington, New Zealand

Stephen Moore Date of birth 20 January 1983 (age 28) Place of birth Khamis, Saudi Arabia

Maybe Australia should keep quite about England doing it LOL.

 

[markshaw]

I'm sure I read somewhere that James O'connor wasn't born in Aussie either

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

I'm sure I read somewhere that James O'connor wasn't born in Aussie either

Born in Australia, O'Connor grew up in New Zealand. A junior league player, in the league hotbed of Te Atatu, his first rugby experiences came watching the Blues at Eden Park before a move back to Australia gave him a start in union. O'Connor's parents are from New Zealand, and his grandparents from South Africa. This, along with his Australian experience, means he is eligible for all three Tri Nations teams

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

In Australia their is a lot of press given to England using players from other countries in their Rugby and Cricket teams but very little is ever said of Australian teams doing the same. So I thought that I would have a quick look through their world cup squad and see who was not born in Australia. Also a couple of old players at the top.

George Musarurwa Gregan (born 19 April 1973 in Lusaka,Zambia)

Lote Daulako Tuqiri Born 23 September 1979 (age 31) Korolevu, Fiji

Digby Ioane Date of birth 14 July 1985 (age 26) Place of birth Wellington, New Zealand

Quade S. Cooper Date of birth 5 April 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Tokoroa, Waikato, New Zealand

William Genia Date of birth 17 January 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea

Radike Samo (b. 9 July 1976 in Nadi, Fiji

David Pocock Date of birth 23 April 1988 (age 23) Place of birth Gweru, Zimbabwe

Daniel Vickerman (born 4 June 1979 in Cape Town, South Africa)

Sitaleki Timani (born 19 September 1986 in Navutoka, Tonga)

Dean Mumm (born 5 March 1984 in Auckland, New Zealand)

Pekahou J. M. Cowan Date of birth June 2, 1986 (age 25) Place of birth Wellington, New Zealand

Stephen Moore Date of birth 20 January 1983 (age 28) Place of birth Khamis, Saudi Arabia

Maybe Australia should keep quite about England doing it LOL.

Yes but when did they all move to Oz?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pretty much every country does it - it's just that people need one to focus all their thoughts on
Used to be the All Blacks "poaching" the P.Is, now it's England

 

[Wally]

Pretty much every country does it - it's just that people need one to focus all their thoughts on

Used to be the All Blacks "poaching" the P.Is, now it's England

I can't say Australia have anything like what England has in Shontayne Hape or Manu Tuilagi playing for them. The closest thing is Quade Cooper, however he has been a product of Australian rugby development since he was 14/15, and hasn't played test rugby league for New Zealand or has at any stage had a set of brothers whom have represented Samoa.

 

[JW.]

As was Manu Tuilagi he played for England U16 and U18.

 

[Gavin]

Who cares? Every person in the whole world will probably not be from their original country. Take Great Britain for example; many clans / tribes have inhabited the island. The last 'true' English ruler of England would have been Boudicca, but even then her ancestors came from the continent. In reality we are all African as that is where humans evolved from.

Enough of this rubbish please.

 

[JW.]

Indeed, if they want and can play for a country good for them.

 

[gingergenius]

All countries do it. What needs to be appreciated are 4 categories, however, since people usually look at something like birthplace or ethnicity just to help prove their point.

1) Players who've been born and brought up in a country who's parents are from elsewhere. Eg. Ma'a Nonu (New Zealand/ Samoa), Topsy Ojo (England/ Nigeria)
2) Players who've been born in one place but spent most of their childhood in another. Eg. Jerry Collins (New Zealand/ Samoa), Simon Shaw (England/ Kenya)
3) Players who've moved to a country between the ages of 10-20, and have split their rugby development between two countries. Eg. Manu Tuilagi (England/ Samoa), Sitiveni Sivivatu (New Zealand/ Fiji)
4) Players who have moved to other nations in their 20s, usually to play rugby (even league) and qualify on residency grounds. Eg. Riki Flutey (England/ New Zealand), Kaine Robertson (Italy/ New Zealand).

As far as I see it, the categories become more dubious as they go on. Yet all are legal and above board. However, it should only be category 4 that is controversial - players in the England setup like Hartley, Stevens, Tuilagi etc. obviously have more commitment to England than any other country despite where they spent early parts of their lives. There's also an issue with some players', like Waldrom, qualifying through a grandparent... why not remove this and simply allow only the nationality of the parent or guardian?

If it was down to me, I'd extend the residency period from 3 to 5 years. It really does get on my nerves, however, that players like Hape, Botha and Fourie are selected for England on residency when I don't think they're better than the local competition. But that's purely subjective.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

[....]

Agree with all of that

Reisdency being 5 years would be a lot better,
It'd stop players hitting their mid 20s and thinking "Hmm, not going to be getting a Springbok/All Black call up...I'll try elsewhere" because they'd be 30ish by the time they qualified, and most coaches wouldn't want someone that old

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Soccer has the right idea when it comes to eligibility. I'd like the iRB to follow FIFAs lead in that regard.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What are their rules?

 

[McTallshort]

Who cares? Every person in the whole world will probably not be from their original country. Take Great Britain for example; many clans / tribes have inhabited the island. The last 'true' English ruler of England would have been Boudicca, but even then her ancestors came from the continent. In reality we are all African as that is where humans evolved from.

Enough of this rubbish please.

Boudicca wasnt English she was a celt, the last English ruler was Harold Godwin, since then England and later Britain have been ruled by the Normans (French)....sorry good point

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Always thought it was odd when people say that, considering the number of Celts that must have lived in England - It's not as if they were in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland and just left the bit in the middle empty....

Also, wasn't the tribe Boudicca was part of based in the Norfolk kind of area?

 

[McTallshort]

Always thought it was odd when people say that, considering the number of Celts that must have lived in England - It's not as if they were in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland and just left the bit in the middle empty....

Also, wasn't the tribe Boudicca was part of based in the Norfolk kind of area?

Yeah and the celtic tribes got driven out by the Anglo-Saxon migration after the Romans buggered off...kind of why the welsh called England the lost lands....

 

[Shaggy]

I can't say Australia have anything like what England has in Shontayne Hape or Manu Tuilagi playing for them. The closest thing is Quade Cooper, however he has been a product of Australian rugby development since he was 14/15, and hasn't played test rugby league for New Zealand or has at any stage had a set of brothers whom have represented Samoa.

Yes, the Quade Cooper example is true, but I doubt that the ARU were throwing up their hands, saying "no we don't want you", when Sonny-Bill Williams was deciding whether he'd play for Australia, New Zealand, or Samoa at rugby union, after playing league for New Zealand ... the ARU also have a policy of players having to be eligible for the Wallabies, if they play for their Super rugby franchises (unless they are the marque player or the team has a temporary exemption like the Melbourne rebels). This negates the players ability to choose to play for any other nation but Australia.

All countries do it. What needs to be appreciated are 4 categories, however, since people usually look at something like birthplace or ethnicity just to help prove their point.


1) Players who've been born and brought up in a country who's parents are from elsewhere. Eg. Ma'a Nonu (New Zealand/ Samoa), Topsy Ojo (England/ Nigeria)
2) Players who've been born in one place but spent most of their childhood in another. Eg. Jerry Collins (New Zealand/ Samoa), Simon Shaw (England/ Kenya)
3) Players who've moved to a country between the ages of 10-20, and have split their rugby development between two countries. Eg. Manu Tuilagi (England/ Samoa), Sitiveni Sivivatu (New Zealand/ Fiji)
4) Players who have moved to other nations in their 20s, usually to play rugby (even league) and qualify on residency grounds. Eg. Riki Flutey (England/ New Zealand), Kaine Robertson (Italy/ New Zealand).


As far as I see it, the categories become more dubious as they go on. Yet all are legal and above board. However, it should only be category 4 that is controversial - players in the England setup like Hartley, Stevens, Tuilagi etc. obviously have more commitment to England than any other country despite where they spent early parts of their lives. There's also an issue with some players', like Waldrom, qualifying through a grandparent... why not remove this and simply allow only the nationality of the parent or guardian?


If it was down to me, I'd extend the residency period from 3 to 5 years. It really does get on my nerves, however, that players like Hape, Botha and Fourie are selected for England on residency when I don't think they're better than the local competition. But that's purely subjective.

Yes, i'm sure this has been covered a few times on here ... number 4 is definitely the category that needs looking at, if any of them do ... the trouble is, as you say, most people look at birth place or ethnicity, and don't account for the fact that the player/parents may have migrated at an early age, or return home after spending time in the country that the player was born in - it all adds extra fuel to the player poaching controversies

 

[King_D'Arcy]

What are their rules?

If you're Clinton Morrisson you can play for Ireland



EDIT: Regardless of incompetence

 

[gingergenius]

Always thought it was odd when people say that, considering the number of Celts that must have lived in England - It's not as if they were in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland and just left the bit in the middle empty....

Also, wasn't the tribe Boudicca was part of based in the Norfolk kind of area?

yep, quick british history lesson from a Celtic Studies student:

originally (pre Romans), England, Scotland and Wales all inhabited by Brythonic Celts (some people might argue that the Picts were different but let's not go there). Ireland inhabited by Goidelic Celts. Boudica was a member of the Iceni tribe, from Essex/ Cambs/ Suffolk/ Norfolk.

Roman influence up to about 5th Century AD does little to change population's makeup. Then, in Scotland, Irish invaders/ settlers come in (Gaels); Angles, Saxons and Jutes come across into England from Germany/ Holland/ Denmark. Over the next few centuries, both migrations greatly alter the cultural and linguistic makeup of England and Scotland, but according to recent genetic tests, they might not have changed our ethnic makeup as much as we might think.

From the 9th Century, Vikings start coming in and build a naval Empire around the Irish and North Seas.

1066 we get the Normans, French Vikings, whose culture and language fuses with that of the Anglo-Saxons, but they leave little noticeable genetic impression.

Over the next centuries, Gaels are established over most of Scotland, and the Anglo-Normans over most of England. Eventually, Anglo-Normans get involved in Wales, Scotland and Ireland, and we are left with the situation today where the English language and culture has pushed the remaining Celtic languages off to the extremities of the British Isles.

All of which means the recent invasion of Polynesian Rugby League players can play for England if they bloody well want to!!

 

[lucky number 7]

From my understanding Great Britain has always been a massive melting pot of different peoples. There is no true "English" by birth just different mixtures ..in the same manner the "Irish" are a mix of Neolithic peoples , Celts , Norse , Danes and Normans, It's merely a case of who the people identify more closely too ..in Ireland it would be the Celtic people while the English seem to associate moreso with the Anglo Saxons from my experience?

So if we were to go by the genealogy end of things how far exactly could we go ? Nations that share the same genetic makeup ?


I have no idea why I wrote all that...I am feeling very delirious