England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Vieux Talonneur]

First time in a while that i find England's all round depth of players scary esp @ 26 and Under.

Yeah it's very encouraging, but Jones is also going to have to be very clear thinking in his selections. Continuity tends to win out over flavour of the month, and if that means some good players miss out, so be it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

First time in a while that i find England's all round depth of players scary esp @ 26 and Under.

I'd trade a bit of that depth for truely world class players though. We may have potential but I still feel not that many England players stand out as the best in their position. We feel like a team that is consistently at "good" level but failing to really go above it. Even in this grand slam I didn't feel England really did anything special and 3 games they began to fall to pieces.

 

[Ospreylian]

Two things, firstly does anyone have any decent video / game recommendations to see Underhill in action? Haven't seen him outside of age grade.

I'll second the earlier suggestion of the Ospreys v Clermont game from January. He was superb in that game, was everywhere and did everything extremely well.

As an Ospreys fan I'm always excited to see Underhill play. England would have to be incredibly stupid to waste or ignore his talents. If you guys would rather Kvesic though I'm quite happy for him to stay in Wales 3 years and qualify for us

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't really judge players by U20s TBH - Devoto was a FB there for example (same year as Nowell IIRC), Alex Goode was a FH etc etc; and many, many promising looking juniors have utterly failed to make an impact at Prem level. You get the odd one who I'll note as a name for the future - Nowell was never one of those for me.

Devoto wasn't a FB - he was a utility back because he couldn't get a game ahead of Slade or Hill, he played at FB when Nowell was rested.
Goode was a FH until it was decided that Saracens wanted their best players on the pitch and Farrell couldn't play at FB.

 

[GRD87]

One thing noticeable about England this Six Nations was the line speed. The forwards were quick to the breakdown, and barely gave the opposition time on the ball. It tapered out somewhat in the last couple of games, but you could see the intent to shut down the opposition... As a Welshman it was unnerving to see, as usually we're the ones with the formidable defence!

 

[ratsapprentice]

If you guys would rather Kvesic though I'm quite happy for him to stay in Wales 3 years and qualify for us

It shouldn't really be either or, though... Kvesic is also outstanding.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

6) Underhill
7) Kvesic

Would look pretty damn good.

Like
6) Warburton
7) Tips

but better.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yep, the way I see it, we have 4 outstanding flanker prospects that we should be bringing in as swiftly as possible.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Agree with that 25 and under for me
Tier one: Ewers, Clifford, Kvesic, Underhill.
Tier two: M.Williams (When not breaking his god damn arm), Harrison, Wallace,

 

[ratsapprentice]

Agree with all of that, Williams and Harrison could well be capable of coming into the picture if any of the "tier 1" guys you've named are unavailable/don't work out for whatever reason.

Te'o is apparently going to be "fast tracked" according to the DM.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...ague-convert-Ben-Te-o-union-squad-summer.html

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not sure how I feel with that Te'o piece.

On one hand he is playing some great rugby for Leinster

on the other he hasn't played rugby for an english club yet which annoys me.

12) Manu, Te'o
13) JJ, Daly

Makes sense in terms of styles i guess with Slade covering 10,12,13.

Just not sure.

 

[Which Tyler]

Devoto wasn't a FB - he was a utility back because he couldn't get a game ahead of Slade or Hill, he played at FB when Nowell was rested.
Goode was a FH until it was decided that Saracens wanted their best players on the pitch and Farrell couldn't play at FB.

So that means.... "yes" then?
Unless by "utility back" you mean "specialist fly half" and by "wasn't a FB" you mean "played exclusively at FB (for Eng U20s)"

Oh, and the last sentence appears to say "Goode was a FH.. until he wasn't"

 

[ratsapprentice]

No - it means he was a utility back because he couldn't get a game in his position because Slade was better than him... much the same reason he played at FB for Bath.

Goode wasn't moved to FB because he wasn't good enough as a 10, it was because someone else wasn't good enough as a FB.

You are suggesting that someone like Nowell hasn't played at FB for Chiefs because it's not his best position now, even if it was in the u20s - that's not necessarily the case.

I'm trying to suggest that FB is his best position, FWIW... until he plays a significant amount there as a senior then nobody can say. I don't think we'll see that unless Jones tells him/Exeter to.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not sure how I feel with that Te'o piece.

On one hand he is playing some great rugby for Leinster

on the other he hasn't played rugby for an english club yet which annoys me.

12) Manu, Te'o
13) JJ, Daly

Makes sense in terms of styles i guess with Slade covering 10,12,13.

Just not sure.

I don't think Te'o is good enough to be honest, he's arguably Leinster's second choice when we have Luke Fitzgerald available at 12. Great runner and strong in defence but he never passes the ball and rarely looks for the offload, he's a less intelligent Jamie Roberts, there's at least 7 better centres playing in Irish provinces in Henshaw, Aki, McCloskey, Marshall, Payne, Fitzgerald and Ringrose. He'd have been better off signing for a good English club team and honing his game further because he's still very raw.

 

[johnmac99]

I don't think Te'o is good enough to be honest, he's arguably Leinster's second choice when we have Luke Fitzgerald available at 12. Great runner and strong in defence but he never passes the ball and rarely looks for the offload, he's a less intelligent Jamie Roberts, there's at least 7 better centres playing in Irish provinces in Henshaw, Aki, McCloskey, Marshall, Payne, Fitzgerald and Ringrose. He'd have been better off signing for a good English club team and honing his game further because he's still very raw.

....and he's 29 yrs old.

 

[Groundhog]

Be pretty hilarious if Grand Slam winning England felt the need to 'fast track' a complete unknown quantity for them in Te'o into the national side. He wouldn't get his game for Ireland by a long shot, so he really shouldn't get one for England. He's a good power running, big hitting player, but like England need more of them?Surely a slap in the face for the guys who came through the system, and have earned their place. Still far from a fully rounded union player, and was totally ineffectual last weekend opposie young Peter Robb. He's a loss to Leinster for sure, but even if he were Irish qualified he wouldn't be a loss to Irish rugby.

 

[Muse_Cubed]

Agree with all of that, Williams and Harrison could well be capable of coming into the picture if any of the "tier 1" guys you've named are unavailable/don't work out for whatever reason.

Te'o is apparently going to be "fast tracked" according to the DM.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...ague-convert-Ben-Te-o-union-squad-summer.html

So the upshot of that article is that Lancaster encouraged him to move to the Prem and he's been calling Eddie Jones saying "dude, I can do a job for England!" but there's no real indication that he's going to be taken seriously by the management. Also, are the people encouraging him to play for England the same people who were encouraging The Saviour™?

 

[Which Tyler]

No - it means he was a utility back because he couldn't get a game in his position because Slade was better than him... much the same reason he played at FB for Bath.

Goode wasn't moved to FB because he wasn't good enough as a 10, it was because someone else wasn't good enough as a FB.

You are suggesting that someone like Nowell hasn't played at FB for Chiefs because it's not his best position now, even if it was in the u20s - that's not necessarily the case.

I'm trying to suggest that FB is his best position, FWIW... until he plays a significant amount there as a senior then nobody can say. I don't think we'll see that unless Jones tells him/Exeter to.

I think you're reading a lot more into my words than I put there.
I'm saying Devoto played FB because he started matches with the number 15 on his back and stood in the full back position.
I'm suggesting that Goode moved to FB because he started matches with 15 on his back and stood in the full back position.
I've never suggested such a thing - I'm suggesting that I don't recall seeing Nowell play at FB, and that he moved to wing before he particularly appeared on my radar as someone to pay attention to.

Ah - we agree on something; you are indeed suggesting that FB is his best position - I on the other hand, am suggesting that OC is his best position; because of gut feeling and my interpretation of his natural abilities and inclinations.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That should have said "I'm not trying". Frankly I think he could be equally capable as a winger, FB or OC at this point. The only way to know for sure is to see him play a reasonable amount of time at 15 and 13.

Your previous comments read exactly as if you were saying that the position in which a player plays for the u20's has little bearing on where they play at senior level - I'm not sure what you are trying to say if not that, because you're clarification is pretty void of any sort of point as far as I can see.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd say that a player's age-grade position has some bearing, but is far from absolute, on what position they play as an adult. Players move around a bit, partly depending on how they develop, both in physique and skills, and partly due to positional availability for club and for country (if good enough).
Consequently, I'm not going to look at anyone's U20 position and say that that's where they should be playing. I further said that Devoto played FB for Eng U20s, and that A Goode played FH - to illustrate my point, plenty of other examples if required.
My apologies if that was unclear.