England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[johnmac99]

I would rather we didn't give away any penalties, as they can be destructive to any side's play/ momentum.

However, in this 6N it hasn't stopped us winning so tells me that looking at them as a bald statistic is not necessarily useful.

Yes, if the same player/s keep getting penalties awarded then the coach needs to look at the situation and decide accordingly.

 

[Peat]

As a point of reference*, last season's penalty stats

9 to France's 11, 10 to Scotland's 8, 13 to Ireland's 8, 7 to Italy's 10, 9 against Wales' 9. We have already given up 3 more penalties this year despite having a game to play.

Break down by player

7 - Haskell*
5 - Cole
4 - Billy
3 - Hartley, Marler, Burrell, T Youngs
2 - Haskell, Mako, Attwood, Croft, Robshaw, Brookes, Ford, Easter
1 - May, Watson, Lawes, Parling

Note - stats may be a bit inaccurate, the 6N site and ESPN both fail to say who gave all the penalties for the Wales match, 6N site fail to say for the Italy match.

Looks pretty fair to single out Haskell and Cole as the main menaces to society.


Johnmac - We won - but is that us improving our performance levels on last year, or other teams dropping theirs? Would our current performance level beat Australia away?

For me, discipline is very clearly something we could do better.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Oh, I agree. I love tight, disciplined sides.

I just look at Hartley, Cole, Haskell and Farrell and think Jones mightn't be too bothered. Particularly given all the talk about him wanting a more aggressive England.

edit: On the discipline front - we gave up 12 penalties to Scotland's 9; 15 to Italy's 9; 12 to Ireland's 10; and 12 to Wales' 14, the only match where we've conceded less than the opponent - but still gave up a large amount. 3 yellow cards, 2 against Ireland and 1 against Wales.

The penalties work out at

12 for Cole*
5 for Haskell*
4 for Robshaw, Farrell, Hartley
3 for Itoje, Launchbury
2 for Care*, Youngs, Billy
1 for Marler, Kruis, Ford, Joseph, Nowell, Watson, Brown, Mako, Lawes

Asterisks for the yellow cards

If I could be bothered, I'd break up the penalties into types; pulling down a dominant maul on the 5m line should be considered different to getting pinged in a breakdown 40 yards out should be considered different should be considered different to getting caught in possession should be considered different to scrum penalties should be considered different to unnecessary high tackle and so on. I have a lot more sympathy for Cole picking up a team yellow for a try saving technical foul than I do Haskell getting yellowed for a bad tackle. Alas, that data is not easily to hand.

Still, no surprise that the usual suspects are up high. Launchbury and Itoje shouldn't be that high given how little game time they had, but I guess are suffering for trying to get involved at the breakdown.

I think Cole's penalty was still poorly-judged, although I see your point about different types. At a point where Wales need three scores, a definite try and 15 men on the field is a lot better than a probable one and a yellow.

I also don't think Cole fits into the "more aggressive England" theory - his penalties don't come from aggression like Hartley's or Haskell's do.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

The simple fact Cole is a prop means conceding 6 penalties in itself doesn't necessarily mean he's been ill disciplined. Depending on which way the wind is blowing can sometimes define whether or not a prop gets pinged at a scrum. I thought he got unfairly penalised twice because of this on Saturday.

Also the fact that he is pretty good over the ball too means he is more likely to put himself in precarious situations too. Yes I would rather his decision making was better in these situations but I'm glad we have a prop that can pilfer effectively.

But he hasn't been good over the ball. Not one turnover this 6n. I was saying this before the 6n. Cole hasn't been decent for at least 2 years.

 

[johnmac99]

Johnmac - We won - but is that us improving our performance levels on last year, or other teams dropping theirs? Would our current performance level beat Australia away?

For me, discipline is very clearly something we could do better.

Probably a bit of both, we play differently now.

I've said in a different thread that I don't think we are ready to go to Australia and win a Test.

I agree with you that discipline is something we could do better, and feel sure that Eddie Jones has it in hand.

 

[Peat]

I think Cole's penalty was still poorly-judged, although I see your point about different types. At a point where Wales need three scores, a definite try and 15 men on the field is a lot better than a probable one and a yellow.

I also don't think Cole fits into the "more aggressive England" theory - his penalties don't come from aggression like Hartley's or Haskell's do.

That's not entirely up to Cole though. If the word is "Stop that try at any costs", then he's merely doing his job. If the word is "We're on a warning, clean noses", then he's being an idiot... but I'll bet that wasn't the message.

And think aggressive here in terms of taking chances and being willing to live on the edge. Cole doesn't go around making high tackles (although getting pinged for hitting that the Scottish player on the side of the ruck fits aggression), but he does tend to take a few chances at ruck time and I think Jones is encouraging that.

 

[Every Time Ref]

That's not entirely up to Cole though. If the word is "Stop that try at any costs", then he's merely doing his job. If the word is "We're on a warning, clean noses", then he's being an idiot... but I'll bet that wasn't the message.

And think aggressive here in terms of taking chances and being willing to live on the edge. Cole doesn't go around making high tackles (although getting pinged for hitting that the Scottish player on the side of the ruck fits aggression), but he does tend to take a few chances at ruck time and I think Jones is encouraging that.

Maybe you're right. Seems quite an extreme level of micromanagement from jones you're assuming though.

Either way I'm not sure it was the right call

 

[Peat]

Maybe you're right. Seems quite an extreme level of micromanagement from jones you're assuming though.

Either way I'm not sure it was the right call

Who said that call was coming from Jones? It may have come from Hartley, it may have come from a player group decision, it may have come from Jones before the game, but...

Any coach that does not ensure the playing group has thought about every possible last ten minute scenario and worked out plans of how they'll react to them is failing at their job. Maybe the coach tells them what to do, maybe the coach guides the players into coming up with decisions for themselves, but they should be prepared to the nth degree for those crucial pressure moments - including how to react to continue pressure on the try line with a yellow card warning. Failing to do that, imo, is a dereliction of duty.

edit: I do think you may be right that they'd have been better off keeping 15 men on the field regardless of whether it cost them a try but at the same time, I think they should have had a stronger 14 man defence than that and presumably were backing that defence.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Maybe you're right. Seems quite an extreme level of micromanagement from jones you're assuming though.

Either way I'm not sure it was the right call

Jones is pretty well know for being into his micromanagement from what i hear.

 

[Willodell100]

Anyone know when Jones announces the team for Saturday night?

 

[johnmac99]

He's kept 26 players for now

Forwards: Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers),Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Dylan Hartley was rested from training yesterday afternoon for precautionary reasons, but Tommy Taylor was added as cover.
Joe Marler has his hearings today, so Matt Mullen has been added as cover.
Alex Goode has been retained in squad.

Eddie Jones is hoping to name his team tomorrow at 10 am.

 

[Willodell100]

He's kept 26 players for now

Forwards: Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers),Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Dylan Hartley was rested from training yesterday afternoon for precautionary reasons, but Tommy Taylor was added as cover.
Joe Marler has his hearings today, so Matt Mullen has been added as cover.
Alex Goode has been retained in squad.

Eddie Jones is hoping to name his team tomorrow at 10 am.

Thanks.

I am happy we have returned to normality of not knowing the lineup until it is announced by the head coach.

During the Lancaster it was far too prevalent that reporters seemed to know the team a couple of days before the official announcement.

I do hope it continues as it just felt uncomfortable how close SL et al were to the media.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Imagine if Taylor got some game time,
The sight of an English scrum where the ball is hooked will be such a shock i might have a heart attack

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Imagine if Taylor got some game time,
The sight of an English scrum where the ball is hooked will be such a shock i might have a heart attack

Ready to watch with a beer in one hand and a defibrillator in the other.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Imagine if Taylor got some game time,
The sight of an English scrum where the ball is hooked will be such a shock i might have a heart attack

Yep that move to Wasps doing him wonders already.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Who said that call was coming from Jones? It may have come from Hartley, it may have come from a player group decision, it may have come from Jones before the game, but...

Any coach that does not ensure the playing group has thought about every possible last ten minute scenario and worked out plans of how they'll react to them is failing at their job. Maybe the coach tells them what to do, maybe the coach guides the players into coming up with decisions for themselves, but they should be prepared to the nth degree for those crucial pressure moments - including how to react to continue pressure on the try line with a yellow card warning. Failing to do that, imo, is a dereliction of duty.

edit: I do think you may be right that they'd have been better off keeping 15 men on the field regardless of whether it cost them a try but at the same time, I think they should have had a stronger 14 man defence than that and presumably were backing that defence.

You say "every scenario" ... there are too many variable to cover every possible scenario, players are still responsible for decisions they make, even if the responsibility is shared with the instructions.

I guess we'll never know, but it seems we both agree the wrong call was made - however, we also seem to agree that the 14 players left are far more at fault for their defence in the last 8 minutes than Coles was for a calculated cheat. Especially Care...

 

[tdh24]

Cole has done a lot of work slowing ball though. He has almost decided that he isn't going for the turnover any more as the penalty risk there goes up. He does, however, slow ball at a lot of rucks, just keeping his hands on it for a couple of seconds. He hasn't been penalised for this I don't think.

George Smith was quoted somewhere talking about having breakdown strategies for different players, based on their physiques and abilities. I think Cole is doing what he has been asked to do. Haskell blasts breakdowns but doesn't really try to get his hands on the ball. Robshaw Itoje, Kruis do a bit of both. The use of feet is also more common - a Saracens trait.

There have been a couple where he has lost his balance/come in at the side.

Additionally getting pinged at the end of the game shouldn't have been as costly as it was. A yellow card with seven minutes to go when a try looked certain was not necessarily a bad tactical move. He could never have known we would have shipped points that fast.

Scrum penalties are a different matter entirely... I would like to have a look at Brookes - his early season form was definitely enough to start above Cole, but he hasn't been in that form recently. He looked a bit lost when he came on last Saturday. I'd still go with Cole for Saturday.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Ready to watch with a beer in one hand and a defibrillator in the other.

Just don't mix your hands up.

 

[johnmac99]

Although Hartley will start on Saturday, Taylor will stay with the squad as a 'reserve' and will travel as such, so there are no plans for him to be on the bench.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Cole has done a lot of work slowing ball though. He has almost decided that he isn't going for the turnover any more as the penalty risk there goes up. He does, however, slow ball at a lot of rucks, just keeping his hands on it for a couple of seconds. He hasn't been penalised for this I don't think.

Is there a distinction between trying to steal the ball and trying to slow it down in this context? I would have said a player always hopes to turn the ball over (perfect outcome), but knows even if he fails he will slow the ball down (decent-to-good outcome) if he doesn't concede a penalty (bad outcome).

As far as I can see Cole, is trading zero perfect outcomes and an OK but not outstanding amount of decent-to-good outcomes against too many bad outcomes. I can't remember the details of all his penalties, maybe you're right and he hasn't given any away while trying to slow the ball down, but it seems unlikely to me. Most breakdown penalties are for sliding the ball down in some way